Is it true guitar should be read up an octive?

[S_R_S5]

I have heard guitar should be read an octive higher than written, but I can't find anything proof of it. Is it true? Doesn't it make it more complicated? For a beginner should he learn to read an octive higher or normal?

Also,
Are you thinking of the scale position you use, or are you constantly thinking of all those flats or sharps in the key?

For example, we are in the key of A. you have a f# c# and G#. are you thinking of those while you play or are you thinking "i'll just use the a major scale to play.

[EinarG]

It depends on what kind of a setting you're playing in I think.
When I play chord melody solo guitar, I usually play the melody an octave higher than noted, because it gives me more room for chord voicing, and I don't have to worry about the melody being lost in the chords.

But in a band setting I would not think of it that way, because I would simplify my chords to fit the bass, piano, etc etc.

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by S_R_S5

I have heard guitar should be read an octive higher than written, but I can't find anything proof of it. Is it true? Doesn't it make it more complicated? For a beginner should he learn to read an octive higher or normal?

Also,
Are you thinking of the scale position you use, or are you constantly thinking of all those flats or sharps in the key?

For example, we are in the key of A. you have a f# c# and G#. are you thinking of those while you play or are you thinking "i'll just use the a major scale to play.

written that way to fit on one staff with least possible # of ledger lines (johnny smith advocates using the grand staff, i.e., bass clef + treble clef, like piano music, at actual pitch. don't think it will catch on.)

"proof" ? well, middle C (256 hz) is properly written as the line below the treble clef, the line above the bass clef (hence "middle"). this pitch on the guitar is the first fret, second string (or fifth fret, third string, 10th fret, fourth string...etc)...figure it out.

FOR A BEGINNER, READ AS 'GUITAR MUSIC'...it's complicated enough ...the other will come later...

[NSJ]

I would start reading with the notes in the first position (including open strings) and making sure I have those down--thus, the "C" on the 5th string, 3rd fret is read as middle C and the "C" on the 2nd string, first fret is an octave up from that (in terms of reading, anyway).

I have used the Charles Duncan book of basic to intermediate pieces by Fernando Sor, et al.

When Johnny Smith was writing his book, he was soliciting advice and feedback, and my teacher told him at the time that sales will be seriously affected, given that most guitarists "struggle to read the treble clef, let alone the bass clef".

That book is, by the way, still in print!

[bako]

[quote=S_R_S5;95191
Also,
Are you thinking of the scale position you use, or are you constantly thinking of all those flats or sharps in the key?

For example, we are in the key of A. you have a f# c# and G#. are you thinking of those while you play or are you thinking "i'll just use the a major scale to play.[/QUOTE]

No, neither.
I know the key signatures, I know where all the notes are to be found on the guitar, I know all the intervals involved in the scale and what shapes needed to play each interval and I know the sound of the intervals involved in the scale.

Memorize the key signatures, there are not that many of them. Learn the fingerboard well. Build a strong foundation.
It takes more than a day and less than a lifetime. Alot of progress can be made with effort applied in the right direction.

Sharp Keys

C D E F G A B C
G A B C D E F# G
D E F# G A B C# D
A B C# D E F# G# A
E F# G# A B C# D# E
B C# D# E F# G# A# B
F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#
C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

Flat Keys

C D E F G A B C
F G A Bb C D E F
Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb
Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb


These pairs of keys have the same notes as each other with different spellings (enharmonic).

B and Cb
F# and Gb
C# and Db

[medblues]

For classical guitar, wouldn't this be the third fret A string standard tuning ? For fake books, what you said is the common reading. Am I wrong ?

Originally Posted by randalljazz

"proof" ? well, middle C (256 hz) is properly written as the line below the treble clef, the line above the bass clef (hence "middle"). this pitch on the guitar is the first fret, second string (or fifth fret, third string, 10th fret, fourth string...etc)...figure it out.

FOR A BEGINNER, READ AS 'GUITAR MUSIC'...it's complicated enough ...the other will come later...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by medblues

For classical guitar, wouldn't this be the third fret A string standard tuning ? For fake books, what you said is the common reading. Am I wrong ?

That's wrong. Again, to make it fit neatly on the treble clef, guitar music is written an octave higher than the true pitch -- equivalently. you can say the guitar plays an octave below what's written.

Go to a piano and play middle C (there, in the middle of the piano!). That's not C on the 3rd fret of the A string -- that guitar note is an octave lower.

Why does this matter? If you are reading piano music, you'll sound muddy! And if you want to play chord melodies, the range will be wrong. In both cases, play an octave higher.

[fep]

Guitar is a "Transposing Instrument" and sounds an octave lower than written.

If you want proof, here it is (do a search for 'guitar' on the linked page):

Transposing instrument - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[cutnstuf]

The way I explain it to my students is that guitar music is written one octave higher.

[medblues]

What I am trying to say is that different octaves are played on the guitar depending on whether the sheet we read from is a solo classical guitar music score (Tarrega etc) vs score intended for piano (solo piano or a fake book melody line) ? Am I still wrong ?

[bako]

Music notated specifically for guitar has already accounted for the guitar sounding an octave lower than written.

Music for sounds at pitch instruments should be played on guitar with the awareness of the difference but in whichever octave sounds good for the situation.
We have to balance the importance of playing the exact original voicing versus the individual best resonance for the guitar.
The skill to play or read up or down an octave is useful to have.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by medblues

What I am trying to say is that different octaves are played on the guitar depending on whether the sheet we read from is a solo classical guitar music score (Tarrega etc) vs score intended for piano (solo piano or a fake book melody line) ? Am I still wrong ?

I see. If the music is written for guitar (Tarrega) it will be written an octave above "concert". If it is written for piano, it will be written at concert pitch. When you play the latter on guitar you should transpose it, unless you want to sound an octave below what's written.

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by medblues

For classical guitar, wouldn't this be the third fret A string standard tuning ? For fake books, what you said is the common reading. Am I wrong ?

no, that is 128 hz, one octave lower.

[S_R_S5]

Is this the reason guitarist don't like to read music?
I understand the written page, but its this thing of where to play it that confuses me.

Also if it is written an octave lower, why do books teach you to play an octave lower? Shouldn't they teach you to play an octave higher?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by S_R_S5

Also if it is written an octave lower, why do books teach you to play an octave lower? Shouldn't they teach you to play an octave higher?

You could ask the same question of saxophones: why are soprano and tenor saxes Bb instruments and alto and baritone Eb?

[Little Jay]

Yes, I am always taught that with for example Realbook sheets (c-clef), the melody should be played one octave higher to be theoretically correct.

But I don't always do it, some melodies just sound nicer an octave lower.

[drobniuch]

some melodies just sound nicer an octave lower.

ergo. learn to play melody both ways and chose Youre favourite... no metter what th theroy is saying

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by S_R_S5

Is this the reason guitarist don't like to read music?
I understand the written page, but its this thing of where to play it that confuses me.

Also if it is written an octave lower, why do books teach you to play an octave lower? Shouldn't they teach you to play an octave higher?

see #3.

[CGKnight]

Whew, thank God I saw this thread. First post here, been lurking since two days, hi everyone ^^

Originally Posted by randalljazz

written that way to fit on one staff with least possible # of ledger lines (johnny smith advocates using the grand staff, i.e., bass clef + treble clef, like piano music, at actual pitch. don't think it will catch on.)

I 'advocate' it too. I think it's a serious awesome idea, because it's way way better for a (classical) composer, plus the different voices become a lot more obvious, and the whole score is a lot less congested. It also shows just where our pitch range stands compared to a piano, useful for ERGs. (These are just the obvious ones...more could emerge if and when I/we use it xD)

I didn't know that others have thought this up too - so far I thought I was the only one with this whacky idea.

I can read treble clef pretty easy (grade 4 classical guitar student, and same for theory), unless we have some gigantic chords in there. Bass cleff slows me down a little...for now.

Besides, the range of the guitar doesn't really need many ledger lines in grand staff. The open 6th string E needs one, the 1st string 12th fret E needs none, and for anything higher or lower there's always 8va and 8vb

[jack_gvr]

The octave displacement thing began in the late 18th century when the Italian guitarists stopped using TAB and started using staff notation. They borrowed the violin's notation in treble clef - the logical thing for the time would have been to use a C clef, but so many guitarists apparently were violinists too, I think, that they went with violin notation an octave lower, and so it is to this day.

Grand staff really would be the way to go, but it would take up twice as much paper and require more page turns, so it has never caught on.

Anyway, a classical guitarist never needs to worry about it, but any commercial musican needs to know how to transpose up or down an octave depending on the circumstances. This is not hard - not so hard as transposing by any other interval, for sure, and also easier than what a well-educated horn player needs to do to read from concert-pitch chart, so don't complain.

The key to reading well is to know scales and chords in all positions by note name, so that when you see something written you already know how it fits under your fingers. Once you know scales in all positions, transposing up or down an octave is no big deal at all. As someone mentioned above, if you want to do chord-melody work, you have to play the melody in an upper position in order to have enough room for chords underneath it and not have it sound muddy.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by fep

Guitar is a "Transposing Instrument" and sounds an octave lower than written.

We like to confound the discussions, but fep's answer was it, in a nutshell.

Like many other instruments, the guitar is transposing. For guitarists to play at concert pitch, they must transpose up an octave from the lead sheet (or what have you) - unless they are reading from a part that has already been transposed for the instrument. Similarly, an alto player transposes up a major 6th, etc., etc.

Regarding OP's question on key signatures ... I look at the key signature and beginning reading with the thought that, "I'm in A," or what have you. I'm not thinking about the individual F#, C#, and G#. YMMV.

[Gitarguy]

Yes, a guitar sounds an octave lower than written. It's not a particularly complicated idea. If you're not reading music specifically written for guitar, then you need to know it. It doesn't necessarily mean you need to do anything different.

The reason that instruments transpose is so that they can read a single clef on a single staff (no matter what the actual range is). Even a bari sax reads in treble clef. What this means to the sax player is that no matter which sax he is playing, he always reads the same clef.

[brad4d8]

Originally Posted by jack_gvr

The octave displacement thing began in the late 18th century when the Italian guitarists stopped using TAB and started using staff notation. They borrowed the violin's notation in treble clef - the logical thing for the time would have been to use a C clef....

Yes, I've thought so as well. Too bad it wasn't 'cellists who adopted the guitar.
Brad

[Kman]

Originally Posted by S_R_S5

Is this the reason guitarist don't like to read music?
I understand the written page, but its this thing of where to play it that confuses me.

Also if it is written an octave lower, why do books teach you to play an octave lower? Shouldn't they teach you to play an octave higher?

For me, I never think about what octave I am playing. I just try to make what I'm reading sound good. In general, if something is written in the upper register then I will play in the upper register. If things are written in the lower register I may play it low or high.

[fumblefingers]

Yes. Thinking about this from a middle C perspective:

1. when playing guitar music, play "as is". that is, middle C as written is played on the 5th string, 3rd fret (or the equivalent - 6th string 8th fret).

2. when playing fake books or vocal music in concert key etc, middle C should be played on the 2nd string first fret, or equivalent)

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by jack_gvr

The key to reading well is to know scales and chords in all positions by note name, so that when you see something written you already know how it fits under your fingers.

I highlighted that quote in bold because it should framed and put on every practice room wall, right above the music stand.