To pick, or not to pick?

[amusiathread]

I'm a long time player (rock and fusion), just now getting into solo jazz. My biggest challenge now is the pick dilemma. I had used a pick for years, but now it seems much more natural to do chord melody stuff without it. However, when I get to wanting to throw in faster lines, I'm finding it's difficult without the pick there. I tried keeping the pick tucked into my hand while not using it, but this keeps my fingers from moving freely.

I'm sure this problem has been common enough, anyone have thoughts or advice to share? Anyone out there going completely pick-free? What are the challenges, any severe limitations?

[FatJeff]

I've suffered from the same issue for a long time. For CM, fingerstyle is the best, IMNSHO. You get maximal flexibility from being able to choose notes on non-consecutive strings.

The thing I've been working on lately is to hold the pick in between the index and middle fingers, above the second knuckle, when comping, and then busting out the pick when solo lines require it. You suffer a very small reduction in finger dexterity when the pick is tucked in, but it's not severe enough to keep yo from comping.

[jayv999]

I've been playing chord melody guitar for over 30 years and I went through many variations of pick, pick & fingers together, pick-to-mouth-to-fingers-back-to-pick, and finally just fingers. I never tried thumb picks.

If I had to do it again I would choose to use just the fingers. If you're really serious about getting some nice chords moves, inner lines, wide-spread voicings, etc., then fingers are the way to go....in my opinion.
Good luck in your quest.
--Jay

[Tcoov03]

Instead of giving up all your picking chops, you could hybrid pick the chord melodies. While you may have to learn to get comfortable with hybrid picking and try to minimize twang, it can be done.

It's also great because you don't have to do the whole "tuck the pick in your hand thing." The pick is already there, your just making use of your fingers.

Larger intervals, with some practice are easier as well(especially on non adjacent strings). You can play wide intervals between strings by just picking down and your pick up is substituted with a pluck from your middle finger.

And like finger style, you can imitate a much tighter, more pianistic comping style as opposed to just strumming.

Hope this helps.

[amusiathread]

Thanks for the tips guys.

I had also given some thought to implementing an approach similar to classical technique, alternating the fingers of the right hand in a "rolling" motion to take turns attacking the same string (I know this explanation sucks, I just can't think of a better way to explain it!). This technique seems like it might lend itself well to the solo jazz setting, but would take some considerable woodshedding on my part to get it down.

Anyone know of any players who use this approach with any degree of success?

Anyone know of a pick-free alternative to sweep picking that might be worth investigating?

[Shadow of the Sun]

When it comes to fingerstyle fast lines...no-one compares to Paco de Lucia. In

YouTube Video

he matches speeds with Al Di freaking Meola playing entirely with his fingers.

So, yes, I'd call that 'successful', wouldn't you?

[CoachP7]

Take a look at Danny Gatton's picking style.

He has a series of Licks n Tricks (6 or 7 I believe) and in one of them, he shows some hybrid (?) picking methods. Some of his style he says is taken from Myles Davis. But, he holds his pick between his index and thumb AND uses his middle and ring fingers to fingerpick.

He shows a few different picking methods in this configuration. More so chickenpickin, rockabilly and country styles going on here as opposed to true chord melody work BUT some excellent exercises and methodologies are shown by Gatton that will help with your dexterity in your fingers.

Somewhat new to jazz and chord melody work but is my main style of play right now. Love it. And, I have a new guitar hero and that's DG - take a look a some of his handywork on YouTube ... simply stunning. They say the best unknown guitarist ever. I agree.

Great site here everyone.

Chow for now.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Tcoov03

Instead of giving up all your picking chops, you could hybrid pick the chord melodies. .

this has been the best compromise for me.

it helps to find a pick that has little "click" in it's attack--i've settled on dunlop jazztone 204's and 205's--for now.

there are some pieces i go after completely fingerstyle, though.

[FatJeff]

Yeah, I've messed a bit with this - but what's killin me is that as a former classical player, I've got pima down, but no pinky! My pinky is like the redheaded stepchild of my right hand; it can't do anything with authority, and is used to being ignored.

Mostly, it's just that I hate having to drill my right hand again. I must have spent a good 4 months getting the simultaneous rest-stroke/free-stroke thing down when I first went through Shearer's book. I hated doing that.

[Scrybe]

Stepan Rak is a classical guy who uses his pinky. Look at it as a challenge - when you train that little digit, you'll be able to his seriously kewl classical stuff as well as the jazz chord melodies. ;-)

[Tcoov03]

My teacher plays with Fingerpicks similar to a banjo player. Of course since it's guitar it's been modified. Just check out the video:

YouTube - Craig Wagner Short CLips

Hope you like this video.

[steev]

I changed to finger style when I started to learn jazz, then changed to hybrid which seems to work better for me, notes and chords seem to ring better. Lost the tip of my right index finger when 14, it was sewed back on but has left me with a claw that sounds like a "ting" when I pluck on electric. Still play finger style on accoustic.

Steev

[zonedout245]

For me, I usually go with fingers. I learned to play with fingers because I used to lose my picks. Now, I'm finally learning to use picks. I like the pick tucking method, because it allows you to completely eliminate the pick, but I feel that it comes down to the sound you're going for. There are pros and cons to every technique, but there are subjective reasons for choosing one and spending time learning it. The sound is the final product, and for me it's what helps me choose what to play with. I find that my fingers accentuate certain frequencies in the notes differently than the pick, as if the guitar were eq'd differently; and I like the fingers for harp harmonics.

[Dystonian_Mode]

Essentially, I have no choice now -- it's pick. Honestly, I did like finger-style in the past, but I'm really digging on the pick style. Both styles have their pros and cons. I really wouldn't say one is better than the other; they're just a bit different.

[jazzalta]

When I saw Joe Pass he kept a small pick between his lips, and often went for it, while hammering on or pulling off, for single line soloing.

[derek]

Originally Posted by jazzalta

When I saw Joe Pass he kept a small pick between his lips, and often went for it, while hammering on or pulling off, for single line soloing.

Yes, this is right. However, I am just not a big fan of it, as much as I am of the attack Lenny got with his thumb pick. Joe had better single line chops than Lenny, but you really have to work hard to solve the click, volume change, and overall change of tone when grabbing that pick for lines.

I prefer the sound of fingers only, and as a former classical hack, I continue to delude myself into thinking I will develop fast enough technique for lines playing during CM. Hasn't happened yet, but doesn't mean it won't.

[Big Ron]

I kind of like these things. It seems to be a little of the best of both worlds. Your thumb note is often OK picked rather than plucked anyway, and it's commonly a pedal point or base note. Then when you want to pick a melody just close your thumb and first finger and go for it. You don't have to tuck it away or get it back out - it's just there, but it's not one of the uncontrollable thumb picks that can inject a crude twangy sound to the strike of the string. When you thumbpick with these it sounds like a regular pick stroke. Wearing it feels like a thumbpick until you close your hand and it feels like you have a regular pick in your hand.

One note, is that I think they are still to slippery even with the four holes. I have a leather punching gizmo and I use it to punch out the holes larger for a better grip.



They are hard to find in some music stores, but online they are around. They are Herco thumb picks, and come in light medium and my favorite Heavy.

Big Ron

[derek]

Originally Posted by Ron Vermillion

I kind of like these things. It seems to be a little of the best of both worlds. Your thumb note is often OK picked rather than plucked anyway, and it's commonly a pedal point or base note. Then when you want to pick a melody just close your thumb and first finger and go for it. You don't have to tuck it away or get it back out - it's just there, but it's not one of the uncontrollable thumb picks that can inject a crude twangy sound to the strike of the string. When you thumbpick with these it sounds like a regular pick stroke. Wearing it feels like a thumbpick until you close your hand and it feels like you have a regular pick in your hand.

One note, is that I think they are still to slippery even with the four holes. I have a leather punching gizmo and I use it to punch out the holes larger for a better grip.



They are hard to find in some music stores, but online they are around. They are Herco thumb picks, and come in light medium and my favorite Heavy.

Big Ron

I had heard of these, but hadn't seem them before. If they are small and pointy enough, might work for me. Thanks for the heads up Ron.

[cosmic gumbo]

Wes Montgomery, John Abercrombie, Jeff Beck, and plenty of other tonemeisters have found their voice without a pick.

[FatJeff]

I played around with the Hercos for a couple of months, but never did get all that comfortable with them. They just didn't sit right on my thumg, angle wise, and they were super tight - to the point of making them uncomfortable after only 15 minutes. Of course, YMMV.

[amusiathread]

No, I never really had much luck with finger picks, I tried several kinds and sizes. I've been working on building technique pick-free. It's a little frustrating as I feel like I'm backtracking, after having played with a pick for 17 years (fusion and metal) it's a lot to get used to.

In a way it's very refreshing though. Before getting into solo jazz I was getting very stagnant and bored with the fusion and metal stuff. I just didn't have the motivation to work for more progress. But now doing solo jazz, I'm so bad at it and have so much to learn, the motivation is definitely there.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by jazzalta

When I saw Joe Pass he kept a small pick between his lips, and often went for it, while hammering on or pulling off, for single line soloing.

This makes the most sense, trust the master. i saw him do it from 3 feet away a couple of times. it works, thats all you need to know. steel strings are not meant for true finger style.

[Goofsus4]

Another option is to get good at string muting with your fretting hand. You may have to abandon certain voicings, but many common voicings can be muted so that you can strum them with a pick. Of course, that means every chord will be strummed as opposed to plucked, which gives a different sound.

[markf]

the very fine Torontonian jazz player Lorne Lofsky uses fingers only. no detectable shortcomings. played with oscar peterson.

Canadian speed demon Jack Semple, also goes pickless.

check out on Youtube, Baden Powell, Brazilian fingerstyle player. outstanding.

(that's his real given name, not surname.)

or, Yamandu Costa.

probably didn't help much. good luck.

[Goofsus4]

These pickless speed demons: what is their technique for playing fast along one string - do they use more than one finger?

[markf]

Jack Semple uses his own technique; Not sure if anyone else plays as he does.

I think he has some instruction dvd's.

I think he first played flamenco, and then moved to electric.

I do not know specifically what he does;

He has very long nails;

For single note fast riffs, I have seen him brace his picking hand firstfinger and use it like a plastic pick, to hit the strings.

and it works well for him. very fast, very clean, very tasty, but he is very talented too.

I think Lorne Lofsky does that as well, I have only seen him once on tv.

[Goofsus4]

Nails - I figured as much, thanks. I cannot have nails as I am a rock climber, so I must play fingerstyle with just the fleshy tips. I think Derek suggested to me one time to try artificial press on nails just when playing, but I haven't tried that yet. I have always thought the idea that you could have a fingernail long enough to use as a pick for alternate picking might be the ticket to going pure fingerstyle, which I would LOVE to do and STILL have speed. Guess I need to try the Lee Press on Nails or something. I've tried finger picks but I just hate them.

[Dgtlgtr]

This may or may not help in the decision process. . . .Go to youtube. . . . . Scotty Anderson Band - Jumpin' At The Woodside and CRACKING THE CODE: Scotty Anderson show exactly how he plays with a fingerpick. He plays country jazz and the standards.

[FatJeff]

Looks like a Herco or something like it.

[billkath]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Looks like a Herco or something like it.

http://www.stringsandbeyond.com/jimduheflthg.html