modes

[karthi]

hi everybody,

I need help with modes. i'm not entirely new to jazz but i still have a problem undestanding where to use modes in improvising. In a progression Em7 , Am7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, Fmaj7, B7 would I be right if i used E DORIAN, A DORIAN, D MIXOLYDIAN,G LYDIAN, C LYDIAN, F LYDIAN, B MIXOLYDIAN MODES respectively.

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by karthi

hi everybody,

I need help with modes. i'm not entirely new to jazz but i still have a problem undestanding where to use modes in improvising. In a progression Em7 , Am7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, Fmaj7, B7 would I be right if i used E DORIAN, A DORIAN, D MIXOLYDIAN,G LYDIAN, C LYDIAN, F LYDIAN, B MIXOLYDIAN MODES respectively.

My experience is that you don't have to change the scales all the time. If you play C Ionian and the chords changes to whatever of the chords you mention it is still possible to stay in the C Ionian mode. Still you can change scale every time the chords changes but you still deal with the same notes but in a different order.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the modes sometimes confuses more than necessary. I struggled with the modes earlier but don't pay that much attention to them any longer. Stick to your C Ionian scale and it will work for you anyway.

I don't know if you mixed up some chords but the correct chords for the C major scale would be: Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7 (dominant), Am7, Bm7b5 to Cmaj7.
You seem to have like the D7 (should belong to the G major scale) Gmaj7 - the first chord in the G major scale and B7 that would be the dominant of the E major scale.

Am I wrong or?
/R

[itsall4you]

Originally Posted by karthi

hi everybody,

I need help with modes. i'm not entirely new to jazz but i still have a problem undestanding where to use modes in improvising. In a progression Em7 , Am7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, Fmaj7, B7 would I be right if i used E DORIAN, A DORIAN, D MIXOLYDIAN,G LYDIAN, C LYDIAN, F LYDIAN, B MIXOLYDIAN MODES respectively.

No.. Technically the most 'correct' modes to use in your progression is

E aeolian, A dorian, D mixolydian, G ionian, C lydian, F lydian (or major), B mixolydian b9 b13.

[itsall4you]

Originally Posted by GuitaRoland

I don't know if you mixed up some chords but the correct chords for the C major scale would be: Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7 (dominant), Am7, Bm7b5 to Cmaj7.
You seem to have like the D7 (should belong to the G major scale) Gmaj7 - the first chord in the G major scale and B7 that would be the dominant of the E major scale.

Am I wrong or?
/R

The progression is actually in G major. Em (6th) Am (2nd) D7(5th) Gmaj7(1st) Cmaj7(4th).

Now, the F maj7 chord slightly confuses me. The most logical chord choice would be F#m7b5 because I'm assuming the B7 is the V chord of E minor and that is how the progression repeats.

I would choose F lydian over major because Lydian is closer to the next scale. The major has a maj7th of the next scale which is a dominant scale.

Therefore Lydian would fit better..

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by itsall4you

No.. Technically the most 'correct' modes to use in your progression is

E aeolian, A dorian, D mixolydian, G ionian, C lydian, F lydian (or major), B mixolydian b9 b13.

Help an old man cross the street. Those first five modes are:

E aeolian = E F# G A B C D E
A dorian = A B C D E F# G A
D mixolydian = D E F# G A B C D
G ionian = G A B C D E F# G
C lydian = C D E F# G A B C D

Wouldn't it be easier to just write "stay in G"? And isn't the result rather boring?

[itsall4you]

Sure, I thought I'd spell it out because the thread is about modes. Although I see modes as being quite important because they tell you what the 'nice' notes in the scale are against a particular chord.

Having said that, I don't always think of this, although quite often I do..

They are the 'same' as G major. But that's not how I see it.. But also note that I said most 'correct' in brackets

Regards

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I just have this image of Bird telling Dizzy: mixolydian my good man, mixolydian!

[karthi]

hey guys,

thanks for the input and sharing the knowledge that you'll have gained with me. your input has certainly cleared up the confusion i had with regards to modes and yes the song is written in Gmaj7. appreciate it.

[Modalguru]

Hi,

i think in modes only when there is a modal composition like so what or when there appears a chord in a progression that has no diatonic function. In a diatonic progression I just think in the basic key (e.g Em7-Dm7-G9-Cmaj7 is only C-major to me) or in a major key I often think in its parallel minor (eg Am is the parallel minor of C-major). So in the scenario above I would think in C major or A minor and the arps according to the chords and throw in other notes (eg #4 over Cmaj, wich then is lydian then) or chromatics as i go along.

By the way, there's a simple method to check out the keys fast, when playing at a session. Just look at the scores of the theme. If there are exidentials changing, in most cases the key changes too.

Cheers,
Chris

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by Modalguru

i think in modes only when there is a modal composition like so what or when there appears a chord in a progression that has no diatonic function. In a diatonic progression I just think in the basic key (e.g Em7-Dm7-G9-Cmaj7 is only C-major to me) or in a major key I often think in its parallel minor (eg Am is the parallel minor of C-major).

Absolutely agree! To be playing in D dorian, the Dm needs to be established as the tonic. In a diatonic progression as mentioned here it is not!

It is however imho of value to speak of modal scales. The only reason for doing that is for me that it is of vital importance to have the Dm chord in mind when using the C major scale to improvise over the Dm chord.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Somewhere along the way jazz education overstressed modes and we're still paying the price

[Goofsus4]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Help an old man cross the street. Those first five modes are:

E aeolian = E F# G A B C D E
A dorian = A B C D E F# G A
D mixolydian = D E F# G A B C D
G ionian = G A B C D E F# G
C lydian = C D E F# G A B C D

Wouldn't it be easier to just write "stay in G"? And isn't the result rather boring?

Exactly, and this is why my position has always been that the modes of the major scale are not really all that useful for improvisation until you start using them in a non-diatonic manner, i.e. the way the OP originally postulated the question - they were using Lydian over the Major 7th chords and picking up the #4/b5 which is hipper than just playing G major. They could have also played Locrian or Phygian over the Dom 7 and picked up some outside tensions. That's why I say that the modes should simply be treated like any other scale - by their intervallic formula with respect to the root in question. At least as a basis for improvisation. If you are going to get into harmonizing the modes and making progressions based off that, then that's a wider discussion.

There is no "right" or wrong way to employ a mode from my perspective. Dorian is 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7. Okay, so play it over whatever you think is going to sound good against that. Dom 7? Gonna be bluesy. Minor 7, gonna sound more inside.

Phrygian: 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7. Over a major chord? Gonna sound very dark and Spanish. Over a a dom 7, especially an altered dom, could sound very hip if you resolve it well, or it could just sound dissonant.

[adamreir]

Ideally, I think you should be able to focus on every chord you'r playing over.

If you'r playing Dm, G7, Cmaj you could think C major all the way, but then you wouldn't be able to fit what you'r playing to the actual chord. So when you get to the G7 you could just pop in a b9 #9 lick, or maby play a Gmaj or a C#7 arpeggio.

Offcourse, you can thing C major all the way, just don't forget to focus on the chords (unless you'r going really fast).

If you play over a dm7b5, G7alt, Cmaj#11 progression, you can't compromise it to a single scale. So when practising, you should be able to think different modes on different chords.

[franco6719]

Originally Posted by adamreir

Ideally, I think you should be able to focus on every chord you'r playing over.

If you'r playing Dm, G7, Cmaj you could think C major all the way, but then you wouldn't be able to fit what you'r playing to the actual chord. So when you get to the G7 you could just pop in a b9 #9 lick, or maby play a Gmaj or a C#7 arpeggio.

Offcourse, you can thing C major all the way, just don't forget to focus on the chords (unless you'r going really fast).

If you play over a dm7b5, G7alt, Cmaj#11 progression, you can't compromise it to a single scale. So when practising, you should be able to think different modes on different chords.

ABSOLUTELY!

[franco6719]

Modes schmodes.

[Reg]

Sorry to add so late... Modes have characteristic intervallic relationships, characteristic pitches and characteristic resolutions which imply each mode. I would suggest taking the time to actually write out each chord of each mode, and go through the different cadences that imply each mode. Discover the avoid notes and what makes each mode unique. You should do this process with all scales, Nat. Min., Molodic Min., Harmonic Min. and even Harmonic Maj.. Then your ear will be able to actually hear the differences, or don't and play whatever. Good luck Reg

[jonasfixe]

This harmony is very similar to "All the things you are":

Yours:
Em7 , Am7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, Fmaj7, B7

All the things:
Em7 , Am7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, F7, Bmaj7

In fact, my advice if I were you I would pick standards likethis and work out those common progressions. With tunes we all know it is much easier to figure out the scales and that stufff...

[franco6719]

Em7 , Am7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, F7, Bbmaj7...

[itsall4you]

Originally Posted by franco6719

Em7 , Am7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, F7, Bbmaj7...

Actually

Em7 , Am7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, F#7, Bmaj7

I think..

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

All The Things You Are | Chords Analysis and Guitar Examples