Fingers and no pick

[Badge]

I'm concentrating at the moment on chord melody skills and working in as many drop 2s and inversions as I can to try to cement them in my head/ fingers.

I like using my thumb and first 2 fingers for this - I find my ring finger (and little finger) are much more difficult to bring in successfully. But I am trying anyway.

My problem is that I struggle to get the same speed and control on runs with my fingers as I can with a pick. But I don't like using the pick exclusively as I like the flexibility of using fingers and being able to pluck different strings. The idea of putting the pick in my mouth or going hybrid doesn't really appeal to me.

So... my question is this: am I kidding myself to think that I can always play finger style and to continue to try to develop my finger speed? Or should I just get real and build in the pick to my playing?

BTW, I played flamenco for a little while and my teacher had no problem with his finger speed!

Thanks!

[Quendit]

I don,t like to use a pick.I play only with my five fingers,cause I like the bossa nova sounds.
Using fingers or pick,its in relation what kind of sound you are looking for.
For example if you play bossa nova,better used your fingers
Also you can play with pick and fingers at the same time,using the pick for the 5 or 6 string and your fingers for the other strings,when your playing chords ,using the pick over all the strings,whrn your soloing or making melodies.
Right hand could be more important than left hand.
If your playing only with your fingers,you can change the way you used them,at the moment you want it.
Also you can play with the thumb the 6 or 5 strings or you can play ,like a bass guitar without using your thumb.
A good guitarman,can play with or without pick,using all his fingers.
Important is what kind of sound you are looking for.
Like you select the kind of guitar,apmlification , the position for your humbuckers or the kind of your strings.
All this things are important.
Then you have to record it and hear if you like the sound you are making.Then you have to listen what you have recorded in different places and with different record players.
You have to prove your sound ,from your very expensive recorders, hearing your music in your car or by a very bad and old cassette recorder.
If you like how it,s sounds in different places,than you have find your sound.
Sorry for may bad English.I,m a Spanish guitar man.
Thanks .
Louis

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Badge

I'm concentrating at the moment on chord melody skills...
I like using my thumb and first 2 fingers for this - I find my ring finger (and little finger) are much more difficult to bring in successfully.

So how long have you been playing with a pick? It seems that it takes longer to adapt an existing technique than to start anew. Remember this.
You're worried about matching your pick facility with fingers only if I understand you correctly? How long did it take you to learn to play as fast as you do using a pick? Did you start off slowly? When you're learning this, be patient. A friend went from pick to finger, and he did it little by little over the course of a year. He now plays exclusively finger. But his phrasing changed in the process. It's like a different instrument. It's well worth it; but there is a period of mental adjustment too. Before you dismiss hybrid, do give it time and attempt some kind of mastery over the technique. Then you can dismiss it on the grounds that it doesn't serve the music, and not because you didn't learn to reckon with it.
Now, are you trying to play your single lines with all your fingers? There are different techniques for you to choose from. The aforementioned friend uses all fingers for chording, 4 for soloing. Kevin Eubanks uses what's called Lute Fingering, an alternating technique of thumb in index. If I remember correctly, so does Mark Knopfler. I use index up and down like a pick, but also combine classical technique at times; I'm not even aware of switching anymore, but the music determines the technique. Bottom line: in the end, it's what you want. You decide, and you have to work a very long time to make it work. Once you master your technique, it's yours-you have it for life, or you can change it up.

Originally Posted by Badge

So... my question is this: am I kidding myself to think that I can always play finger style and to continue to try to develop my finger speed?

Have you worked with classical exercises to develop finger independence, strength and chops? These are individual fingers each of which should have the ability to play fully with control. I use the Aaron Shearer book with students; it's good for that issue.
Did you work slowly? I mean did you take an etude, or exercise or set of licks and play them REAL slowly until they sounded REALLY good with your fingers? It's not an automatic transition, you know. You'll only learn speed when you learn the control it takes to play very slowly and clean.
Don't limit your possibilities to just one approach, four finger may indeed not be the right one for you, but once you make a decision, stick to it, commit to it and give it the effort due to the rewards you imagine. It will come.
David

[m78w]

I played with a pick for many years, then about 9 years ago I switched to just fingers. At first i struggled, but it was what I wanted. I was playing too many notes and not hearing them before I played them with a pick, then playing with my fingers forced me to slow down so I could hear every note and line before I played it, plus it was way easier to play solo and duos with a singer with my fingers.

It took about 5 years of playing with my fingers to get my speed back, but now I can play as fast as I did with a pick when I want, plus do a bunch of stuff I could never do before I played with only my fingers.

If you want to play with your fingers I say go for it, if I did it you certainly can, just stick with it and over time you'll get to where you want to be.

[Vihar]

Badge, if it doesn't seem to come together and you still feel discouraged, I suggest you to try playing with a thumbpick, so you can close your finger(s) back onto it and play the faster single note passages as you would with a regular flatpick. I know Herco makes a flatpick shaped thumbpick, maybe other companies do that now too.

I started playing with a pick, then it became a pick and two fingerpicks (index and middle) for a few years, then I started playing with fingers only, and I was happy with it in about a year.

[NSJ]

Still have my picks, even if I no longer use them!

Fingers open up the magic world of POLYPHONY

Or, as George van Eps said, helps to transform a guitar into a "lap piano"

[markf]

Originally Posted by m78w

It took about 5 years of playing with my fingers to get my speed back, but now I can play as fast as I did with a pick when I want, plus do a bunch of stuff I could never do before I played with only my fingers.
.

I think that if playing fast is the goal, the fastest players, use a pick.

there are no fingerstyle players that I can think of that equal mclaughlin, or Benson, or Lagrenne, and so on.

but there are definitely things that can be played better, or only played, fingerstyle.

just keep at it, and you will get it.

[TruthHertz]

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

Originally Posted by markf

I think that if playing fast is the goal, the fastest players, use a pick.

there are no fingerstyle players that I can think of that equal mclaughlin, or Benson, or Lagrenne, and so on.

But there are some that can get around with that they're given:

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

Don't forget Jeff Beck

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

Maybe they don't play fast but they do things that sound fast.
David

Sometimes you say so much by NOT playing fast- some sounds you simply need your fingers for

YouTube Video

[NSJ]

some players used the pick for single note lines only , like Joe Pass, otherise they used the fingers.

I think that I-m are often used for single note lines, but reall work that p-i !!!!!Develop that thumb!!!!

[Badge]

Thank you to all for your responses. I am going to persevere. I love the simplicity of it being just me and the guitar and what's in my head. Nothing between the tyre and where it hits the road!

[Reg]

Hey Badge... what's the next step ... no amp, no guitar etc...
Hey I played traditional classical for years... had plenty of speed, just never got that good. But jazz is a different style of playing. I play gigs, record etc... without pick quite a bit. I just posted a video of a mambo version of comping over Dolphin Dance, with no pick. Not traditional but helped get that latin feel.
I wouldn't base your choice on listening to the great players. No disrespect intended... but very few reach those levels of playing.
That Scotty Anderson vid was killin, not even close to jazzz... but man... that's burnin... OK here's the video of latin version of comping on Dolphin Dance...

YouTube Video

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by Reg

That Scotty Anderson vid was killin, not even close to jazzz... but man... that's burnin...

If that wasn't jazz than Django wasn't jazz either.

[Reg]

I didn't mean as a knock, I love Scotty's playing, as well as guys like Brent Mason, just don't think of them as jazz players, When I think of Django, I think 30' and 40's hot club, Gypsy. Not Jazz, ( gyspy jazz)...is that bad... They obviously can cover jazz tunes , but are they covered in a jazz style... I guess it's subjective. When I try and cover what I think of as the majority of Scotty's style, Burnin country, rockabilly etc... I can get out the notes... just can't get out the feel... except when he does that crazy, fluff finger pickin thing , that only he can do... I have a rockabilly gig this Sun. I'll be trying again...When I sit in on gypsy gigs , or drop in on Hot Club nights...with some of my friends... well it's a different harmonic, rhythmic accent pattern or feel night, not bad or good, just different. I dig the faster tempos, and love the 2 and 4, but there's a different feel between county and jazz swing. I know I'm probable opening the personal view door... but it's probable good. Again I don't know of a finger picker with more chops than Scotty, and I wouldn't use him for your example of what's possible for most us... Reg

[Richb]

Yeah Reg, the gypsy jazz/western swing-thing has only superficial similarities to jazz - but it is true that the further u go back in history, the closer those styles sounded to the *then* current way of playing jazz, but they - by now - bear almost no resemblance to the contemporary jazz style...I wish Scotty could play in time properly though, he always rushes horribly, especially on slower tunes, and he also succumbs to the temptation to show off his licks - which is part of the country thing, I suppose. For jazz, though, it's nowhere

[Patriots2006]

Hey Reg, You might want to check out Doyle Dykes. Talk about chops. He's rediculous.

[Vihar]

I think improvising over a well known jazz standard the way Scotty did qualifies as jazz. Sure it wasn't bebob, that's why I thought he's closer to the roots of this whole thing. The regular fingerpicking technique is basically what ragtime guitar is after all. But I thought he didn't just execute pre-learned riffs and licks, and there were enough "out" notes too.

I can see how it comes off like he plays too many notes most of the time, and he often rushes his lines instead of playing behind the beat. I think those are valid devices though, especially in the swing/hot jazz style.

[Reg]

Hey Vihar... OK, I just heard country licks, country phrasing, again I dig them and as I said great job of covering a jazz standard. The as you said "out" notes all come from a harmonic approach... there not randomly played chromatic, approach or passing tones. So to my ears the harmonic approach is not in a jazz style either. Again not Bad, just not in a jazz style. I don't think he plays to many notes, I'm a musician... I have a different perspective as compared to general audiences... let it go... I love it.
Rich... great points... yea western swing, thanks, I spaced... couldn't remember term.
Thanks Patriots... dig the acoustic style and sound much more. great entertainer... I don't know though, his tempos are quite a bit slower, but I dig his country feel better, not as much rock... Thanks Reg

[FlatNine]

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey Badge... what's the next step ... no amp, no guitar etc...
Hey I played traditional classical for years... had plenty of speed, just never got that good. But jazz is a different style of playing. I play gigs, record etc... without pick quite a bit. I just posted a video of a mambo version of comping over Dolphin Dance, with no pick. Not traditional but helped get that latin feel.
I wouldn't base your choice on listening to the great players. No disrespect intended... but very few reach those levels of playing.
That Scotty Anderson vid was killin, not even close to jazzz... but man... that's burnin... OK here's the video of latin version of comping on Dolphin Dance...

Nice groove on that vid Reg!

[Jim Soloway]

I've been playing fingers only since the late 70's. I'm note especially fast (and wasn't when I played with pick either) but when I really want the approach of a flat pick for a passage, I bring my thumb and index finger together as though they were holding a pick and then use the tip of my index finger (supported by my thumb) as the pick. People watching often think I'm switching to a pick but it's really just fingers. I can do both a sequence of downstrokes or alternate picking that way and I can get a bit more speed than I can with conventional finger style.

[Fritzjazz]

Hello,

I alternate thumb and index for fast passages. Or I alternate thumb and middle if I think I might do some artificial harmonics on the fly leaves the index free to touch). I alternate index-middle in free stroke if I'm doing melodic stuff, index-middle rest stroke if I'm trying to empasize something-really bring out something sweet. On chords I take a set on the right hand-put my fingers ON the strings I intend to play first, then squeaze the chord out.

This works for me.

Fritzjazz

[ronjazz]

When all is said and done, there is no reason to abandon the pick, even if you end up playing fingerstyle mostly. The phrasing of the pick is difficult to surpass for swing-style jazz. Even though I'm a classically-trained and flamenco-oriented player, I always do a set on the archtop with the pick in a jazz concert. It's a nice textural change, and people like it. And once you're plectrum chops are where you like them, a few minutes a day keeps the technique in good shape.