Learn to fingerpick well so all right hand fingers can work individually?

[SammieWammie]

How do I do it? I can separate my thumb and other three fingers fine, well enough to do pretty good walking comps. Thing is I've never had a really proper style of playing guitar, I only started using a pick 3 weeks ago, still I'm getting pretty proficient with it now. But my playing style went from bass finger walking thingiemajigie then I switched to guitar and started using my thumb, I don't really know how but my playing (mostly self taught guitar) morphed into improvised fingerstyle using my thumb and 1st finger, if anything probably similar to Jack Johnson (yes I know not jazz) but I know a lot of his songs but because I mostly played solo I automatically added in little things like playing the root when the bass does then chords with a mix of thumb and 1st finger with the other three casually resting/feathering the body, never thought about it because I was young (well still am) and it worked, also no teachers ever told me not to as I had no guitar teachers. Well anyway it has limitations even after learning the technique for Stop This Train which now has gotten my middle finger pretty well at picking too. I'm good at my way of playing but it gets limited so that I want/need to improve my middle and ring fingers, maybe pinky, (is the pinky worth it? It feels so weak), all to the point where they can all work on their own beautifully so together they go crazy. Anyway how can I do this, working them all so individually they can do whatever they want (Tuck Andress stuff). All the while my left hand technique is pretty great if I can say that it's just the right which has never had any specific technique so now I've being taught/exercising proper picking I want to get a fair level of mastery on fingerpicking, what I'm thinking is if I can master all my right fingers then pretty much everything will come naturally. I'm hoping. Help me out peps?

[matt.guitarteacher]

If you've done the right hand thing on your own for a while and feel that your technique is still somewhat lacking, you really need to take some lessons with a qualified teacher who has some classical skills. Most players who have really good RH technique have had some classical training. A video can't make minor adjustments to the angle of your hand (on 3 different planes) or the placement of your fingers. I don't know if there's any other way around it. Having a teacher work with you on this stuff is the the best option.

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

you really need to take some lessons with a qualified teacher who has some classical skills.

I'll second that. If you must do it alone, get a good CG method - Noad's Solo Guitar Playing (Books 1 and 2) can be used either with a teacher or on your own, and Scott Tennant's Pumping Nylon is highly considered. Use of the right hand is a huge subject, we can't give you a comprehensive answer to your question here, but here are a couple of pointers:
- Your hand itself shouldn't move, except to put the fingers in position.
- Your hand is built to grip. That means that extending the fingers is much more difficult than pulling them in. But to use your fingers accurately, you have to put them in the right place first, i.e., extend them.
- It is best to place your finger on the string before plucking, don't sweep through.
- Also place your thumb on the string before plucking, with the added difficulty that you should be able to play at least the bottom three strings with your thumb without moving your hand.
- You need to be able to do all hand/finger movements slowly. You may think you're doing it right at medium or even moderately high speed, but if you can't do it slowly, you're doing it wrong. That means you can't get better.

[SammieWammie]

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

I'll second that. If you must do it alone, get a good CG method - Noad's Solo Guitar Playing (Books 1 and 2) can be used either with a teacher or on your own, and Scott Tennant's Pumping Nylon is highly considered. Use of the right hand is a huge subject, we can't give you a comprehensive answer to your question here, but here are a couple of pointers:
- Your hand itself shouldn't move, except to put the fingers in position.
- Your hand is built to grip. That means that extending the fingers is much more difficult than pulling them in. But to use your fingers accurately, you have to put them in the right place first, i.e., extend them.
- It is best to place your finger on the string before plucking, don't sweep through.
- Also place your thumb on the string before plucking, with the added difficulty that you should be able to play at least the bottom three strings with your thumb without moving your hand.
- You need to be able to do all hand/finger movements slowly. You may think you're doing it right at medium or even moderately high speed, but if you can't do it slowly, you're doing it wrong. That means you can't get better.

Most of that stuff I do already except for maybe the moving hand which I move anyway so I can strum and some other techniques, also tapping, but the only separation (rhythm wise) I can do comfortably is playing a bassline and comping with the three fingers going all at the same time, course I can go and then use less fingers too and I also can do a kind of sweep thing similar to strumming slowly but fingerstyle using thumb-index-middle-ring and even pinky if I want in order kind of sweeping down but plucking each individually. All that is completely fine. What I want is to get all my fingers to the point where they can play individually great instead of sitting in a group comping all together (which I do fine, everything you say there I do). I also can also play my version of Summetime with bass, chords and melody all in one. They do make way for each other so none are really full parts but it still has three. But what I want to do is get so I can fingerpick as well with my middle, ring and pinky as my 1st finger is. And because I always used my 1st finger for years playing what the original recordings used proper fingerstyle for with three it's pretty good.

[zigzag]

For an independent thumb, learn Merle Travis picking technique.

[paynow]

Originally Posted by zigzag

For an independent thumb, learn Merle Travis picking technique.

Yes. Something I work on constantly. There are some good books on it and some decent lessons on YouTube.

Chet Atkins was the master:

YouTube Video

[JohnRoss]

With all due respect to both Merle Travis and Chet Atkins, fabulous players both of them, neither of them could use their RH fingers worth a damn, they used essentially thumb and index finger. With awesome results, sure, but the OP was interested in improving use of his other fingers, and of all the possible role models to follow with that aim, they must be pretty close to the worst.

[rvi]

probably the greatest living master of the technique, scotty anderson

YouTube - ‪In the Studio with Scotty Anderson‬‏

[zigzag]

Yeah, I got that John, but I have never been able to master Merle's thumb bass lines. It's like patting my head and rubbing my belly; like playing bass lines with one side of the brain and playing arpeggios with the other side. The point is that when the OP can operate his fingers independent of each other, like Merle does with his thumb, then he's reached his goal. Tommy Emmanuel is an excellent example.

Like anything else, practice is the key.

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by zigzag

The point is that when the OP can operate his fingers independent of each other, like Merle does with his thumb, then he's reached his goal. Tommy Emmanuel is an excellent example.

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think Merle Travis had a particularly independent thumb, either, it moved with his hand, if I'm not mistaken, his forearm bounced around. If you want independent control of your fingers (and thumb), the first thing you have to do is keep your hand and arm still.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

If you want independent control of your fingers (and thumb), the first thing you have to do is keep your hand and arm still.

+1 this. At the very least, work some "dust in the,wind" type right hand patterns. It's almost impossible to play that intro at tempo with a lot of extraneous right hand movement. If you work on something like that your hand will "learn" economy of motion on its own. It also works toward independence of all the PIMA fingers equally. All my dust in the wind, paul simon and country blues stuff left me well prepared for classical playing by the time I got to college.

The beautiful thing about the intro to Dust in the Wind is that the left hand is very simple, the right hand pattern stays the same throughout, and uses the same stringset throughout. Much more interesting than those other exercises on one chord, and once you know it you're playing a classic tune.

[zigzag]

I believe you're missing the point. Anytime you play patterns your fingers are not moving independently, regardless of whether your hand moves or stays still. When I learned finger picking patterns on guitar, I was taught that thumb played bass lines on the 4th, 5th, and 6th strings, index on the 3rd, middle on the second, and ring on the first. Fingers could move up or down a string, or share strings, depending on the demands of the song. There is no set rule as to how anything should be played, and we only have to look at the style of Wes Montgomery or any other finger-style player to see that.

As for angle of attack, I suppose that depends on the sound your going for.

[reventlov]

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

With all due respect to both Merle Travis and Chet Atkins, fabulous players both of them, neither of them could use their RH fingers worth a damn, they used essentially thumb and index finger. With awesome results, sure, but the OP was interested in improving use of his other fingers, and of all the possible role models to follow with that aim, they must be pretty close to the worst.

Travis used only thumb and index finger but Atkins played with thumb and three fingers, and is one of the very best role models you can find for how to use the fingers independently. Don't take my word for it, there are literally scores of videos of him on Youtube, go check.

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by zigzag

Anytime you play patterns your fingers are not moving independently, regardless of whether your hand moves or stays still.

'Patterns' are not a particularly good starting point for finger independence. The whole idea of 'patterns' is that they are repeated RH finger movements that are done unvaryingly and unthinkingly. True, 'patterns' can be used to build finger strength, and in fact quite a lot of e.g., Sor's studies do exactly that (though I don't think that's the sort of thing the OP was asking about), and you could, with the right approach and preferably a competent teacher, extrapolate from that and use them to develop finger independence (though by that time, you would probably have stopped calling them 'patterns' and started using real musicians' words like 'arpeggios'). But they would only be useful for developing finger independence if you first resolved to keep your hand still.

When I learned finger picking patterns on guitar, I was taught that thumb played bass lines on the 4th, 5th, and 6th strings, index on the 3rd, middle on the second, and ring on the first.

It is very hard for me to believe that a real guitar teacher would teach that. It's hard enough for me to believe that anything more evolved than mould would. I think it more likely that you came away with the wrong idea.

There is no set rule as to how anything should be played...

The OP wanted advice on technical development, no-one was saying anything about how things should be played.

...and we only have to look at the style of Wes Montgomery or any other finger-style player to see that.

How bad an example can you choose? Wes's technique was notable for his (unorthodox, not that there's anything wrong with that) use of the thumb, not his fingers. And I don't think his thumb was notable for its independence, it moved with his hand. He did, if I'm not mistaken, do upstrokes with it, which is remarkable and worth a whole thread to itself, if there hasn't already been one, but that has nothing to do with its independence.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by zigzag

I believe you're missing the point. Anytime you play patterns your fingers are not moving independently, regardless of whether your hand moves or stays still.

I very well may be missing the point as I have no idea what you're talking about. Anything you play with your fingers is a pattern of sorts. I thought that the OP was saying he was pretty good with P & I and needed to work on getting the other fingers involved. What do you think he's asking?

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by reventlov

Travis used only thumb and index finger but Atkins played with thumb and three fingers

OK. Chet Atkins didn't need to play with thumb and one finger as much as Travis, for one thing because Travis did p-i for runs instead of a plectrum down-up, whereas Chet Akins used a thumbpick for that. But he did play with thumb and one finger much of the time, thumb and two fingers often and thumb and three fingers occasionally.

... and is one of the very best role models you can find for how to use the fingers independently.

No, he doesn't use his fingers independently, not really. His technique is a wee bit more sophisticated than Merle Travis's, it's true, but his use of the fingers is very limited, a finger per string, beginners' stuff. He plants i on the 2nd and m on the top string and does p - i - p - m, for example, or p - i - m rolls, or even plays the top string with a and moves i and m to the 3rd and 2nd strings, nothing you wouldn't expect a Grade 3 learner to be able to do. It sounds beautiful because Chet Atkins was a fabulous musician. But it isn't Recuerdos de la Alhambra, and in terms of RH finger independence, he is not a good example to follow. Julian Bream is.

Don't take my word for it, there are literally scores of videos of him on Youtube, go check.

I've seen them, I'm a fan, have been for years.

[zigzag]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

I very well may be missing the point as I have no idea what you're talking about. Anything you play with your fingers is a pattern of sorts. I thought that the OP was saying he was pretty good with P & I and needed to work on getting the other fingers involved. What do you think he's asking?

My interpretation of what the OP was saying was that he has no issues playing patterns. ("I want/need to improve my middle and ring fingers, maybe pinky, (is the pinky worth it? It feels so weak), all to the point where they can all work on their own beautifully so together they go crazy. Anyway how can I do this, working them all so individually they can do whatever they want...What I want is to get all my fingers to the point where they can play individually... " -Sammiewammie) His problem was playing finger style and playing notes, as the music demanded, with his fingers. JohnRoss, I never meant to suggest that Wes M. had good technique. I only meant that his thumb played the strings and notes as the music demanded. To me, playing patterns means that the strings that are played with each finger follow a picking pattern, and themselves are "dependent" on what other fingers do within the pattern. Random picking means fingers play independently of any pattern.

I apologogize for not being clear, but it seems that we are all "playing a different song."

[reventlov]

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

No, he doesn't use his fingers independently, not really.

Yes he does

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

his use of the fingers is very limited, a finger per string, beginners' stuff.

No it's not.

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

It sounds beautiful because Chet Atkins was a fabulous musician. But it isn't Recuerdos de la Alhambra

Yes it is

YouTube Video

[zigzag]

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

...It's hard enough for me to believe that anything more evolved than mould would...

The method that I was taught was for a beginner learning basic finger patterns (excuse me- "arpeggios"), I was apparently in a similar learning stage to the OP about 45 years ago. It occurred to me that this might not be a bad lesson to follow starting out with the patterns I was learning and as a point of departure.

I have been on a few forums, and I have never encountered the type of arrogance and air of condescension displayed in your post. In the future I will deprive myself of the wealth of knowledge you apparently think you have by searching for the ignore JohnRoss button.

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

If you've done the right hand thing on your own for a while and feel that your technique is still somewhat lacking, you really need to take some lessons with a qualified teacher who has some classical skills. Most players who have really good RH technique have had some classical training. A video can't make minor adjustments to the angle of your hand (on 3 different planes) or the placement of your fingers. I don't know if there's any other way around it. Having a teacher work with you on this stuff is the the best option.

this is good advice - some basic classical technique will sort out the problem with the minimum of fuss

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by reventlov

Yes it is

So it is, dang, I've even seen that video before. But you win.

Originally Posted by zigzag

The method that I was taught was for a beginner learning basic finger patterns (excuse me- "arpeggios").

I misunderstood, sorry - I read it as i - m - a = 3 2 1 as a rule for life, it wasn't clear to me that you were talking about something for beginners.

So that's me in my place.

[thenoviceguitarist]

How about working out some single note lines played fingerstyle. Utilize restrokes (when you strike a note on the B string, your finger pushes thru that string and rests on the G string. Any time you play more than one consecutive note on a specific string, alternate between i & m (index, middle). This will be a bit of an adjustment. Try to cover the lower strings with your thumb, like you've been doing. When you get the i, m, alternation happening, work in the ring finger as well. It will take some time to build speed.

[jzucker]

what I do for single lines is alternate between thumb and middle or thumb and index (similar to Kevin Eubanks...)

[reventlov]

Originally Posted by jzucker

what I do for single lines is alternate between thumb and middle or thumb and index (similar to Kevin Eubanks...)

Yes, I do the same thing, with either p-i-m or p-m-i for triplets, depending on which strings are involved. For jazz, it seems to me that it 'swings' better than playing similar lines with the more common classical approach of alternating fingers. Lenny Breau is another example of jazzers who use this approach. It's also a common technique amongst country players such as Jerry Reed, Brent Mason and other players of that ilk.

The idea of playing lines with alternation between thumb and finger is of course not new - way back in the 16th century, lutenists all over Europe did the same thing.

[edspyhill01]

I suggest stopping at a music store and looking through "Pumping Nylon". He has collected just about every RH exercise into that book and made some modern changes. For instance, he has rearranged the Giuliani "120 Studies" into logical groups.

If you decide to take the classical guitar approach, plan on one year of just focused RH work. That barely scratches the surface but it is a good start.

I think you mentioned the angle of attach of the RH fingers, and that work is best handled by someone trained in the Shearer school (I would get flamed for saying that elsewhere). In CG, we don't pluck the string sideways. We push the string down with the "sweet spot" of flesh and nail, and then release it. The plucking finger makes a small arc "through" the string. Something like martial arts when you punch or kick a spot past a target. I think that RH training absolutely needs a dedicate degreed CG instructor.

One way to add some independence to the RH fingers is to move the accent to different RH fingers. Do the following on the second string.

> ................ >..................>
i - a - m - i - a - m - i - a - m - i - a - m II: repeat

> .................>.................. >
i - m - a - i - m - a - i - m - a- i - m - a II: repeat

[RememberClifford1]

Originally Posted by edspyhill01

I suggest stopping at a music store and looking through "Pumping Nylon". He has collected just about every RH exercise into that book and made some modern changes. For instance, he has rearranged the Giuliani "120 Studies" into logical groups.

Ohhhhh yes... love it. Pumping nylon is a phenomenal book. Everyone should give that a look if only for the left hand stuff. If you're actually looking to get that right hand going it's brilliant. Tarrega's and Giuliani's RH studies. Reaaaally great stuff.

[kambor]

+1 to Pumping nylon. I bought it 8 years ago and I still study from it, and even part of my warm up comes from this book. Even my teacher at the conservatory practices exercises from this book!

Here you have an exercise from my teacher, an example of ancient rhythms from my region YouTube - ‪An example of afrocanarios rhythms on the guitar.‬‏

[TruthHertz]

A couple of players have really opened up my eyes, and made it easier to understand fingerstyle jazz.
Mick Goodrick has been a finger player that uses a wide range of melodic and harmonic vocabulary that is pretty unique to independent finger use. It does have its origins in classical technique and continues to this day; every time I see him, there's something new he's finding.

YouTube - ‪Pat Metheny & Mick Goodrick - Meditation [HD]‬‏

Ben Monder has really seamlessly combined pick playing with finger playing. I think the results of his work are remarkable.

YouTube - ‪Ben Monder - Orbits‬‏

For both of these players, it's been a long road, and classical techniques and etudes are really helpful as a foundation. Mick used the Aaron Shearer method. With fingerstyle, much of what can be done is still undiscovered. If you learn to think and understand harmony (Both Ben and Mick are indebted to the Bach chorales) and your understanding of your instrument can grow in tandem with good harmony,( it's been a good route in my humble o) you can truly make the instrument your own.
I think some of it is attitude. Piano players learn early to accept the burden and freedom of 10 fingers. The possibilities have been there a lot longer than for us guitarists.