Solo Guitar Improv

[jazzat]

Hi All, I have a few head arrangments for solo guitar and would like to know if anyone has any general rules they follow when improvising after they play the head. I guess I am looking for some ideas to structure the improv along the lines of how wes would play single notes, octaves and block chords to build his solo's.

[Aristotle]

Use the ideas in the original melody. Use ideas stolen from recorded solos. To some extent, meldoy has to just come to you, like someone singing scat.

[Jazzaluk]

I think the best way to get into it is to stick close to the melody and your original head arrangement. From a listener's perspective, some things need to change and some things need to stay the same.

Use the head arrangement as the framework and start to substitute chords (or a few bars) with lines. When you do this you might notice that things change when you try to return to the head. You may find yourself a bit early or late, which will cause you to make adjustments or embellishments to get back on track. Often this will generate some nice spontaneous ideas. Just go with the flow and try to anticipate the next chord or bar that you will substitute with a line. It doesn't hurt to simply comp for a few bars as an alternative to playing a line or returning to the melody if things get messy.

The most important thing is to make sure you complete each phrase before switching back and forth. The melody will tell you when and where to make the swaps. From a listeners perspective, doing simple things well will sound much better than trying to get overly technical. IMO, intricacy and complexity is an illusion that is created by integrating simple concepts.

Its a great exercise because it will reinforce your ability to play single lines and embellish the melody within a familiar framework.

Enjoy the process.

[mr. beaumont]

play the changes, keep the structure of the tune intact.

If you use a lot of big 5 and 6 string lush chords in your arranged head, you give yourself a lot less options when heading to the improv. I treat taking a head in chord melody before the rest of the band kicks in VERY different from solo performance.

Build solos--it's not bad to have a "formula" when starting out. Use chords as punctuation to single note lines. Don't fear space, but remember that space will go over a lot better if the chords you played before it were smaller voicings rather than the afforementioned big ol six stringers.

quote the melody or play off the melody to help the listener through. Sometimes I like to start improv very close to the melody and gradually move away, other times I dive in and return to the melody as a touchstone here and there.

[ksjazzguitar]

Hey, if I can quote myself from another thread, I have three basic textures that I use for this:

1. Melodic lines punctuated with chords. This has already been discussed. The trick here is to leave space in your lines.
2. Melodic lines that imply the chord changes enough that chords are not needed. This is somewhat difficult for a lot of modern players who are steeped in the "chord/scale" approach and play the "scale changes" instead of the "chord changes." In order to put this off, you need to really be thinking about chords and guide tones and how they resolve. You don't have to do this on every change, but getting at least some of them makes it sound like you know where the changes are.
3. Chord solo. Obviously this eliminates the problem.

I'm actually not a fan of the "variation on the melody" approach. I think that that gets kind of boring after a while - for the listener and the player. It's funny how often people compliment me for "soloing around the melody," but really it's just that I'm playing the chord changes (a dying art these days, but that's a different rant) - I think people so rarely hear people truly playing chord changes that they get confused.

I recently my solo version of "Misty" which is a good example of combining approaches 2 and 3: Some jazz, some classical.

I'm sure there are other approaches, but that's what works for me.

Peace,
Kevin

[jazzat]

Thank you for all of the detaile responses.

When mr b and ksjazzguitar say "Play the changes" how strick are you with that? As an example if you were to play lines over autumn leaves Am7 - D7 - Gmaj7 - Cmaj7 etc would you be hitting a guide tone on the 1 of every bar? and if so, do you get to that guide tone chromaticly or do you jump to it from a tone or more away?

I can outline chords with single notes but when I try to hit every guide tone for every chord I have to use preconseved scales and patterns. I really want to avoid using patterns and let my ears and ideas guide me through the changes.

Maybe I need to woodshed more?

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

I'm actually not a fan of the "variation on the melody" approach. I think that that gets kind of boring after a while

No one said do it in a boring way or don't do anything else.

I find it interesting in these thread when someone seems to be asking for start-off ideas - "I have a few head arrangements" - that there is always a contributor who misinterprets the start-off advice as some type of be-all end-all statement.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think it would be cool to transcribe some easy horn solos for whatever tune you're learning and make a solo arrangment with chords from them. It seems like it would give you some "vocabulary" in the context of chord soloing like you get when you transcribe single-note stuff. I haven't done this yet, but it's something I want to work on (not one chord per note). Has anyone else tried this with chord-melody?

I just find that there's kind of a disconnect between single note improv and improv in chord-melody for me, even though I play a bunch of chord-melody tunes. Lately, I've been doing more work on actually memorizing tunes, and I do find that I more easily quote melodies over the "chord of the moment" when they're memorized cold.

I'm trying to take melodies over the ii7's in a given tune and use them over ii7's (or V7's) in other tunes for example. It's a jumping off point. I still think it would be cool to do the same thing with actual classic solos though.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by jazzat

Thank you for all of the detaile responses.

When mr b and ksjazzguitar say "Play the changes" how strick are you with that? As an example if you were to play lines over autumn leaves Am7 - D7 - Gmaj7 - Cmaj7 etc would you be hitting a guide tone on the 1 of every bar? and if so, do you get to that guide tone chromaticly or do you jump to it from a tone or more away?

I can outline chords with single notes but when I try to hit every guide tone for every chord I have to use preconseved scales and patterns. I really want to avoid using patterns and let my ears and ideas guide me through the changes.

Maybe I need to woodshed more?

Well, first of all, there's no reason I'd start every line on the 1, and all that thinking "play a guide tone here," is fine for practice, but in real application it means nothing. You continue the melodic line you're crafting, however the note relates to the chord.

Practicing things like guide tones does allow you to hear how strong and defining they are, and they're never a bad place to take off or land. But all of that takes a back seat to melody.

When I say "play the changes," what I mean is continue using the form of the tune as the framework for your improvisation, that's all.

[Reg]

It basically comes down to how well you play as to how you would approach solo playing. If your somewhat of a beginner or even intermediate player...you probable can't just wing it and play whatever you feel like. Those skills of being able to know when you start something, like taking a chorus, the ability to have at your disposal instinctive methods of putting what your playing/hearing into a shape and form that will have a balance. The form could be as simple as a beginning middle and ending but have some type of thread or method of connecting those parts with a shape. So if you feel you can just play and the pieces will fall into place.... you simply play. But if you don't then you probable need to have a prearranged plan... that you can think about... without taking all your creativity away... your ability to improvise. So as you begin to build a collection of pre-conceived shapes and forms, they become instinctive and you develop the ability to play improvised solo guitar.
There are different methods of developing these skills... Some simple memorize and perform, works well. Not what I personally consider improvised solo guitar... but safe and if your a beginner or intermediate, might be best method to display your guitar skills without crash and burn.
The down side of this method is your training yourself in the opposite direction of improvised solo guitar, if that's your goal.
To me, this is the overall concept and then you become aware of all the techniques, the details of playing, expressing what you hear... this part is pretty mechanical, most are aware of all these, scales, arpeggios etc... understandings of harmony, melodic, rhythmic, practice and development. The different styles of playing and historic reference, what's been played, which effects how you hear... Obviously this takes time and considerable practice. But if your aware of how you want to play, at least you can have a play of how to get there. best Reg

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by jazzat

...When mr b and ksjazzguitar say "Play the changes" how strick are you with that? As an example if you were to play lines over autumn leaves Am7 - D7 - Gmaj7 - Cmaj7 etc would you be hitting a guide tone on the 1 of every bar?

First of all, it's not just hitting a guide tone on 1, it's hitting a guide tone on the last note of a chord and then the corresponding guide tone as the first note of the next the chord. So, you would play the C on the last note of the D7 and that would resolve to the B of the GMaj7.

Now, that is a simplification. It can be disguised by figuration. Also, no, you don't want to do it on every change. I once went through and analyzed a Bird solo and counted how often he resolved guide tones and found that it was about 25% of the time. Analyze some classic Bird solos and you'll see what I mean. If you try to catch it on every change then things will get boring - this isn't guide tone accounting. I think that it is more important to simply practice them and incorporate them into your language so that they come out naturally from time to time.

Peace,
Kevin

[pingu]

First of all, it's not just hitting a guide tone on 1, it's hitting a guide tone on the last note of a chord and then the corresponding guide tone as the first note of the next the chord. So, you would play the C on the last note of the D7 and that would resolve to the B of the GMaj7.

exactly Kev ....... playing the changes

in the woodshed it can be good as an exercise to make yourself
make all the changes ........
later when trying pure improv ..... some of them will
automatically pop out ...... rah !
maybe about 25% of the time

[Jazzaluk]

25% of the time? What about the other 75%. Maybe there is more to it than guide tones.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

25% of the time? What about the other 75%. Maybe there is more to it than guide tones.

Yes, there is. Obviously there is more than just playing the guide tones. The point isn't that you should only play guide tones, but that if you never do then you aren't really "playing the chord changes." They are what define the changing of the chords.

The problem is that chord/scale guys hear us say, "You need to learn how to play guide tones" and they seem to hear "You need to play every guide tone that comes along at the expense of everything else." The other 75% of the time you are just playing melody. The point is that those old cats had practiced playing lines that incorporated guide tones and dissonance resolution so well that it just became part of the way they heard melodies. Those guys weren't thinking about guide tones when they were improvising, they were just hearing melodies, but that is just the way that they heard melodies. This is essentially what pingu is saying.

Again, that is no longer the only way to improvise, but up until the late 50s, it was the way to improvise and and has been a fundamental concept of melody writing since the middle ages. It is not the only way to improvise, but IMHO, a person's jazz vocabulary is incomplete without it.

Peace,
Kevin

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Again, that is no longer the only way to improvise, but up until the late 50s, it was the way to improvise and and has been a fundamental concept of melody writing since the middle ages. It is not the only way to improvise, but IMHO, a person's jazz vocabulary is incomplete without it.

Peace,
Kevin

Right, and it's only for that reason that I think I come off as anti-CST sometimes...I'm not, in fact, when playing more modern stuff, I use it a bunch...

But when a student comes to me and says "I can't get this to sound like a bop line" and then they rattle off a chain of scales they're using, I think it's sometime necessary to remind them about how the bop players were visualizing things.

[Jazzaluk]

I don't mean to dismiss the role of guide tones as a vehicle to outline the changes, and I am definitely not a CST guy ... so you won't see me defending the "what's that scale" approach.

I see playing the changes as a blend of root movement, guide tones movement and melody. There is really not much more to it than that. To me, the real magic is not in the math, it is in the phrasing and timing.

I suppose that my contribution would be to suggest that an aspiring solo player should focus primarily on the phrasing and feel. People hear melodies and phrases, they don't hear guide tones and scales. Transcribing or imitating the licks and lines of the greats will teach the "25%" and the other "75%" as well. Learn the vocab first, analyze later.

But... guide-tones are definitely a piece to the puzzle.

[docbop]

Originally Posted by jazzat

Hi All, I have a few head arrangments for solo guitar and would like to know if anyone has any general rules they follow when improvising after they play the head. I guess I am looking for some ideas to structure the improv along the lines of how wes would play single notes, octaves and block chords to build his solo's.

Check out some Steve Giordano for ideas.

Dolphin Dance

ATTYA

[wizard3739]

Steve is a wonderful, sensitive guitarist! I love his style and interpretation for jazz guitar. My favorite from him is Dolphin Dance.

wiz

[jazzat]

Thank you for taking the time to responde. I have the guitar out so here is my feedback on the suggestions.

Matt - Love the idea of transcribing a solo and adding chords. I have just tried the opening of Miles solo on "So What" but in Am for Autum leaves. There is alot of mileage in taking fragments and implying it over the am-d7, adding some chromatics and chords underneath the melody.

I also took the idea of using other mII melody's and using in different songs. I have ATTYA and autumn leaves next to each other in my book so I took the the ATTYA melody from bar 33 Bb-7 chord (db, f, ab, db) and came up with some great variations straight away. I will work out how to use the tab function and post them.

Mr B - Thank you for elaborating on how you use guide tones. I listened to your recordings last night and I could clearly hear line's developing contour and melody but enough guide tones, chord stabs, bass movement etc to follow the tune.

Reg - I have been playing for 12 years and am an accoplished guitarist in rock, alt rock and country. I taught guitar at a music school for two years and have a very sound knowlege of theory. I feel as though I am close to having a breakthrough with jazz improv and I want to play improvised music not arrangments. Your advice on practicing for the end result is a great help. thank you.

Ksjazzguitar - Thank you for the 25% stat on bird. That is exactly the kind of information I was after. I was thinking maybe I need to be hitting every guide tone at the right time which as the chords are flying by doesn't leave me with anytime to think, create and develop. Perfect.

pingu - "later when trying pure improv ..... some of them will
automatically pop out ...... rah !
maybe about 25% of the time" - Great call and I completley understand and agree with you.

Jazzaluk - My phrasing and feeling does need work. I transcribed some Kenny Burrell and Grant Green and when I realized how much they used the same blues scale I was blown away. It was the same scale I have been playing since my first guitar lesson but when they played it I was thinking "what are they playing" when I transcribed I realized the differance was phrasing, feel and note placement. That is where the magic is.

Docbop - Thanks for the links. I had not seen this guy before. Very cool.

I will soak all of this info up and post some video or audio in the future so you can see the effects of your advice and interest in my playing. Cheers.

[jazzat]

This is a variation of Matt's concept of taking a minor II melody from another song. This is just chromatics added to the melody notes of bar 33 of ATTYA put put into Am for Autumn Leaves. When I got to the D7 I just wanted to make my way down to the guide tone for the Gmaj7. So played in eighth notes I landed their on the one. I did set out with the preconseved thought of arriving at the b note on the 1 but the rest was improvised using the ATTYA melody as a seed. I tried to play it with a swing feel and used slurs, hammers and pull offs and I think it sounds okay. To me it sounds better if you take one of the notes out of the d7 run to allow the phrasing to be broken up but swung eighth notes work for the purpose of the exercise.

[Ám7]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|8--|---|---|---|
||---|5--|8--|5--|6--|7--|8-|---|---|---|---|
||5--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
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[d7]

||7--|5--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|8--|7--|5--|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|7--|6--|5--|4--|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
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[Bopattack]

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

Paul Meyers with Seventy Seven Albatross.

[mr. beaumont]

Nice spam. Wasn't a '77 Albatross one of those cars AMC made?

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Nice spam. Wasn't a '77 Albatross one of those cars AMC made?

Who's AMC?

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by docbop

Check out some Steve Giordano for ideas.

Dolphin Dance

ATTYA

A very unique style. I've never seen this guy.

Very interesting.

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Who's AMC?

AMC = American Motor Company

They were the 4th largest American car company back in the 70's.

They made the Javelin which was a "muscle car" competitive with the Pontiac GTO and Chevy Chevelle SS for example.


Gremlin



Pacer




Rambler

And the Jeep!



They also made military vehicles like tanks.

AMC got absorbed by Chrysler when Lee Iaccoco was in charge.

[Aristotle]

Drumbler, I put a smiley on there. You really didn't think I knew?

Now, this is a Pacer,
Geek Chic.

YouTube Video

[Drumbler]

If you are a status seeker there is no better car than a Pacer.

I had a picture of Donald Trump driving his Pacer...now where did I put it?