musicians who die from drugs

[604bourne123]

if you're a addict you go to a doctor get a perscription then go to a pharmacy get your drug go home you're no problem to yourself or anybody.As soon as you make it illegal it becomes a thrill something to do for the kids they follow with vigour.Mexico has lax laws too but a different thing everything is so poor that the drugs are the only economy so what happens everybody guards their income with guns like what would you do if you did'nt have any money?O.K. Columbia ,South America has a limit of one gram of coke,one gram of heroin any other weight your a dealer you go to jail.One thing the people are getting addicted.So there you go.

[fumblefingers]

"drugs are reducers" (psychology 101). they alter the human brain's ability to function as designed. PERIOD.

this notion that psychedelics are healthy is nothing more than the blathering of either a dunce, a romantic who is enamored with pagan religion, or an excuse making druggie who will latch on to anything to make his childish argument. useful council to such individuals would be: dude. wake UP!

also, while making the argument that legalization and drug abuse and addiction etc would be harmless, i noticed that no one bothered to mention those small details about the oh so common addicts' committing robberies, murders, or both at once, so that they can support their habits. or killing cops. or their family members, or strangers of the opposite sex, or people on the highway, and on and on and on.

what is it about non-classical music that draws so many confused and hazy beings?

[604bourne123]

take the thrill away by legalizing through a doctor crime will diminish you'll have a utopia on earth.

[elixzer]

You make some good points but thoughty i'd focus on this

Originally Posted by Scrybe

as for society/corporations being the cause of all our ills - we made society and corporations, so we are to blame if they are indeed that cause and our continuing sponsorship of them insures their continued dominance.

But I doubt society/corporations really have that big an effect. The simple fact is the world doesn't owe you, me, or anyone anything.

the children didn't make it. Like I said--I didn't make school, I like most kids was forced to go. In our news last week this teenager who refused to go to school, his mum has been thrown in jail because of that. So there is enormous pressure to go to their 'education' system which then 'trains' you to accept the authority of this society even though much of it is irrational.
But your right, our conformity to a culture that is unintelligent is part and parcel which means you have to speak out against things you see as wrong.

As for that old chestnut 'the world doesn't owe you a living'--that is the mantra of ruthless takers who believe they can enslave everyone and if their victims protest that is what they say. In FACT, they have inculcated this propaganda so firmly in peoples minds via education that the very slaves accuse other slaves of that.
Hence if someone refuses to do soul destroying jobs etc to 'survive' usually the other poor sods oppressed by tyhe same system will be first to point the funger and call them 'scroungers' or worse

It is all this mad hatters teaparty scene which is a big reason many people, including musicians seek escape. I am sure you familiar with George Orwell and his doublespeak---where the oppressors try to make you believe 'war is peace', and 'ignorance is strength' and 'freedom is slavery'.....?

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

"drugs are reducers" (psychology 101). they alter the human brain's ability to function as designed. PERIOD.

Yes 'drugs' ARE reducers. I could go through them---like alcohol is a depressant, for example--drink enough and doing so will reduce you to unconsciousness. Then you have other drugs like the accepted psychiatric and medical drugs which are 'specifics' and target specific chemicals and so on.
But sacred plants and substances do not reduce, they expand awareness. WHY do you think that in the 60s they were called 'mind expanding'? So used with R E S P E C T that is what they do. They do not reduce.

this notion that psychedelics are healthy is nothing more than the blathering of either a dunce, a romantic who is enamored with pagan religion, or an excuse making druggie who will latch on to anything to make his childish argument. useful council to such individuals would be: dude. wake UP!

You obviously have not done any serious research about this or you wouldn't say that---and what is wrong with Paganism anyhow? OR Romanticism?
Are you even aware that as of now psychedelics and empathogens are being used in psychotherapeutic studies in order to research healing of humans?

also, while making the argument that legalization and drug abuse and addiction etc would be harmless, i noticed that no one bothered to mention those small details about the oh so common addicts' committing robberies, murders, or both at once, so that they can support their habits. or killing cops. or their family members, or strangers of the opposite sex, or people on the highway, and on and on and on.

Don't you see what your saying? You are really agreeing with me...lol. Look, why do you think there are robberies, etc etc? be-cause people NEED their drugs....? So obviously IF they could get them without having to do that they would wouldn't they?

what is it about non-classical music that draws so many confused and hazy beings?

So you are a classical guitarist? And you think that world is all free from drugs and 'confused and hazy being'? Well looky here
Home - MOZART IN THE JUNGLE Blair Tindall

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by elixzer

Yes 'drugs' ARE reducers. I could go through them---like alcohol is a depressant, for example--drink enough and doing so will reduce you to unconsciousness. Then you have other drugs like the accepted psychiatric and medical drugs which are 'specifics' and target specific chemicals and so on.
But sacred plants and substances do not reduce, they expand awareness. WHY do you think that in the 60s they were called 'mind expanding'? So used with R E S P E C T that is what they do. They do not reduce.

You obviously have not done any serious research about this or you wouldn't say that---and what is wrong with Paganism anyhow? OR Romanticism?
Are you even aware that as of now psychedelics and empathogens are being used in psychotherapeutic studies in order to research healing of humans?

Don't you see what your saying? You are really agreeing with me...lol. Look, why do you think there are robberies, etc etc? be-cause people NEED their drugs....? So obviously IF they could get them without having to do that they would wouldn't they?

So you are a classical guitarist? And you think that world is all free from drugs and 'confused and hazy being'? Well looky here
Home - MOZART IN THE JUNGLE Blair Tindall

cut the sales pitch please. show us the clinical trials that support your position about psychedelics.

not talking about romanticism either. i think that you are like an adult playing cowboys and indians. i'm saying that in 2010 following the example of a jungle or forest stalking spear chucker's religion - just so that you can get high - is beyond foolish. so go ahead, if you want to get high in a tipi that's your choice. you can even wear some beads and a feather in your headband. just stop pushing it to others.

in the 60s they were called mind expanding or mind altering because they made one think of non-sensical things that seemed really sensible to the subject when they were stoned. and as a bonus they saw good colors too. useless.

so here's a test. get ten of your dope smokin' buddies really high on peyote, shrooms, or weed - or all three! - and have them write down their thoughts about any challenging topic that plagues and puzzles man. then share their compositions with us all and we'll see how enlightened these people became when they got high.

tell us eaxactly what you mean by "healing". it ain't so just because you say so ten times. you do understand that your credibility on this point is non-existent, and not just because i say so, right? you're not a certified expert. you have no credentials to make such claims. your testimony here is easily impeachable. so please direct us to the documented empirical proof of human disease healing directly caused by psychedelic drugs, or knock it off with the sales pitch. you sound like Timothy Leary.

no the crimes that you are referring to are to get money FOR the drugs, not the drugs themselves. are you advocating that tax payers foot the bill for a bottomless case of hard drugs for every addict that walks the earth? i missed it if so. you see, an addict is not a productive person and will not make enough money for drugs either legal or illegal, and can reasonably be expected to steal.

and you didn't address ANY of the other crimes i listed. you dodged, you evaded. good reason, because you don't have a response. you realize that a person isn't in a state of "healing" when they engage in violent crimes. (at least i think you're that perceptive, i'm not sure.)

you missed the point about classical. what i'm sayng is that jazz draws a lot of goofy mofos.

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

cut the sales pitch please. show us the clinical trials that support your position about psychedelics.

Did you see the Iboga Therapy link above?
Did you also remember a few hours ago,,,, how I informed you that studies are being done with human subjects with psychedelics and empathogens?

not talking about romanticism either. i think that you are like an adult playing cowboys and indians. i'm saying that in 2010 following the example of a jungle or forest stalking spear chucker's religion - just so that you can get high - is beyond foolish. so go ahead, if you want to get high in a tipi that's your choice. you can even wear some beads and a feather in your headband. just stop pushing it to others.

So you hate Hippies is that it? Who do you like? I am curious?

in the 60s they were called mind expanding or mind altering because they made one think of non-sensical things that seemed really sensible to the subject when they were stoned. and as a bonus they saw good colors too. useless.

Have you had experience with psychedelics or empathogens, and so are talking from your own experience, or is all this talk a result of propaganda you have heard?

so here's a test. get ten of your dope smokin' buddies really high on peyote, shrooms, or weed - or all three! - and have them write down their thoughts about any challenging topic that plagues and puzzles man. then share their compositions with us all and we'll see how enlightened these people became when they got high.

I don't smoke dope. I haven't heard any great ideas from you. Isn't it you who wants to set the military on all drug pushers, and totally destroy them...no mercy? It was you wasn't it??

tell us eaxactly what you mean by "healing". it ain't so just because you say so ten times. you do understand that your credibility on this point is non-existent, and not just because i say so, right? you're not a certified expert. you have no credentials to make such claims. your testimony here is easily impeachable. so please direct us to the documented empirical proof of human disease healing directly caused by psychedelic drugs, or knock it off with the sales pitch. you sound like Timothy Leary.

What do I mean by healing? I am stating that healing doesn't only involve healing physical ailments, but also is very much to do with our whole being. How we feel in relation with nature, other species, our own species---our sense of well being.
I don't HVE to be a doctor, or psychiatrist, or surgeon, or any experit to be free to express my feelings what healing is. AND I am not selling anything. Have I asked you to part with any money for anything?

no the crimes that you are referring to are to get money FOR the drugs, not the drugs themselves. are you advocating that tax payers foot the bill for a bottomless case of hard drugs for every addict that walks the earth? i missed it if so. you see, an addict is not a productive person and will not make enough money for drugs either legal or illegal, and can reasonably be expected to steal.

I am saying that a person who needs drugs will--if necessary--steal to get money to buy them. Hence they should be able to get what they need in any intelligent society.

and you didn't address ANY of the other crimes i listed. you dodged, you evaded. good reason, because you don't have a response. you realize that a person isn't in a state of "healing" when they engage in violent crimes. (at least i think you're that perceptive, i'm not sure.)

Your missing the point fumblefingers. OBVIOUSLY people are not in a state of healing when they engage in violent crimes (and robbery is actually NOT a violent crime unless it involves harming another person physically) and no wonder because this society BREEDS dis-ease. IF it was more intellignet it would realize that people who have HABITS will do anything to feed them duh, so the thing to do is BOTH help then receive regulated drugs (drugs that are not street drugs which are more than often mixed with all kinds of shit that cause the user harm) AND also provide help for them to come off their habits, and this is where psychedelics and empathogens come in.

you missed the point about classical. what i'm sayng is that jazz draws a lot of goofy mofos.

Did you see that link (dare I ask) about the Classical world and its drugs and ting??

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by elixzer

the children didn't make it. Like I said--I didn't make school, I like most kids was forced to go. In our news last week this teenager who refused to go to school, his mum has been thrown in jail because of that. So there is enormous pressure to go to their 'education' system which then 'trains' you to accept the authority of this society even though much of it is irrational.

Admittedly children didn't make school and, ye, you were no doubt forced to go to school yourself. But you're an adult now who is holding on to old wounds and allowing them to cloud your current progress. So, in that sense, it is as much your attitude that is making you a 'prisoner of society' than it is anything else. I hated school, too. I found it largely boring. The work was too easy and the rules too arbitrary. But I didn't make a massive chip on my shoulder about it, I worked the system to get what I needed as best I could, and I learned from it. I can't regret anything I learn from, so I can't let school, as imperfect as it was, dictate the rest of my life. Oh, and I regularly refused to go to school, and spent that time doing useful things instead. Fwiw, I then went to one of the best universities in the world where I got a good degree and was offered a place to continue my studies at postgraduate level. So I'm really not speaking as someone who skived school and suffered from it.

Now, for this little debate about whether drugs can be mind-expanding.....


There is one sense in which intoxication can be considered conducive to intellectual endeavours, but it is a very limited sense and doesn't require any specific form of intoxication.

If you have an individual who is trying to solve a complex problem, sometimes straight up hard cold rationalism will not be the most effective method of problem-solving. Plenty of problems benefit from some lateral thinking (the genetic double-helix, anyone?). In these cases, where the subject has solid prior knowledge of subject, intoxication can encourage lateral thinking and thus the making of connections that would otherwise prove less easy to grasp.

In other words, Albert Einstein might further his work in physics from smoking a spliff (or meditating, or playing violin, or any one of a number of activities which put the mind in a more relaxed state), but the average joe can't be expected to pull Einstein's discoveries out of the hazy air. Fumblefingers your argument was weak - you asked elixer to prove drugs were mind-expanding using a test that was designed to fail. I'm not taking sides here, just saying that was really shoddy arguing at best, at worst it was downright disingenuous.

Mind-expanding is such a wooly term. The fact is, all drugs are mind-altering substances. Love is also a mind-altering substance, as is music, sports, hatred, and anything else which acts or can act as a stimulus to the central nervous system. Now, these stimulants can be used to produce both positive and negative results. But there are so many variables involved that there is no certainty that permits any of them to be consistently used to bring about a certain result. Arguing in favour of drug use as being a mind-altering positive force is stupid. But arguing in favour of the use of anything else as a mind-altering positive force is equally stupid. At least in so far as we wish to draw absolute and universal conclusions. This has nothing to do with any substance, and everything to do with the complexity of the human mind. The human mind is a system too complex for us to predict.

So, please, if you're gonna get into this debate, can you both raise your game at least a little? Because right now you're both spouting ill-thought out arguments.

[elixzer]

When I speak of the damage school does to children and people, I am not JUST referring to myself but of course to all others who feel the same way, and may not even realize that school has been cause of a lot of further trouble in their life like...musicians doing drugs? Because that is the subject isn't it, and that is why all this has to be brought into this real deep question. You can't just say to someone who feels down, and all the degrees of stress that people can have 'oh, pull your socks up--get a grip--get rid of that chip' and all the other cliches. Do you not think that their parents etc dont say similar, and do you think that does any good? I don't. I think it can make the person feel even worse, even more worthless.
I worked as volunteer at a Needle Exchange (a place that hands out free clean equipment for drug users) for several years, and met a lot of users of all different kinds. Some of them, their self-esteem was So low that they would admit they wished they were invisible. So you saying 'get rid of your chip' etc would have no effect but to make them feel even more of a hopless failure.
Thus its about time we UNDERSTAND how sensitive WE are. And if you feel 'I'm alright jack' understand many dont feel so confident and may need deeper hjelp understanding and love than empty cliches that can be quite smug.

"Mind-expanding is such a wooly term. The fact is, all drugs are mind-altering substances. Love is also a mind-altering substance, as is music, sports, hatred, and anything else which acts or can act as a stimulus to the central nervous system. Now, these stimulants can be used to produce both positive and negative results."

true that all drugs alter chemicals, but only psychedelics expand the sense of oneself and this is why indigenous peoples --who have been around a FAR longer time than modern civilization and the so-called 'war on drugs' call them sacred medicine. They had other drugs also which they would use for this and that, but the difference between those and mind-expanding substances is that they take us into very deep places, and thus can be deeply healing WHEN used with respect.

I am seriously sorry you compare my thoughts here with fumblefingers. Like I say I am passionate about all this and have done a lot of research over the years regarding it so I am hardly "spouting ill-thought out arguments." What it is is most likely you haven't really looked into all this properly?

I am not saying to muscians who do drugs to graduate onto psychedelics instead. I am saying that only THIS civilization--this modern civilization-- has taken this irrational stance against what for thousands and thousands of years been understood to be sacred plants!

Did YOU see the link about titled Iboga Therapy, all four parts? What is your review of it? I am curious to hear.

[Scrybe]

I've studied psyhcology, I've met and chatted with Ken Kesey just prior to his death, and Neal Cassidy's son. I've also studied philosophy. I've read De Quincy, Leary, Huxley, and many others, and I've seen and experienced the effects of various drugs. Oh, and one of my parents was a biologist. So I have a little experience of the matters being discussed.

For a concrete example of how the school system can be disadvantageous, when I began learning guitar, I studied music in school. I was studying it on keyboards and doing theory. My peers were musicians who had private lessons (tpt, drums, violin, etc) put on by the school. As a guitarist, I was told quite simply to just get on with it on my own. I got good grades, but my advancement with music was seriously held back by not having bad habits checked, and by not having a teacher for my instrument. As it is, I have to do all that legwork now, and I had to make the decision now to use my severely limited income to finance private tuition. But I'm doing that, for me, because I want to improve in music and it matters more than anything else right now (e.g. I don't have kids or other dependents, so the sacrifice is mine alone). I could sit and whinge about how school treated me, and I could use those experiences to justify not seeking a teacher now. I could get all worked up about it and be screwed up by it, but the fact is I'm only as screwed up by it as I allow myself to be.

There's no escaping the fact that, however, bad your surroundings or experiences (and believe me, that was a really lite example, I've experienced things that would make your blood run cold), you are always in control of how you react to those surroundings and experiences. If something results in you being screwed up, it is as much your disposition towards that event as it is the event itself.

I'm sorry, but pointing to external sources as an excuse for personal limitations is just weak. I think there's no greater inhibitor of human development than our own capacity to excuse ourselves from serious progress in this way. To blame society for your problems involves a negation of the self and its powers. I'm not willing to do that.

[elixzer]

So you have had psychedelic experience? That is interesting to know. I just like to know. It doesn't mean I intend to talk down to someone who has n't had psychedelic experience of course.

Also--so this doesn't all become ever more complex please listen that I am not just speaking from my personal story. I DID share here that I had an awful time at school--it is a bit unfair to then accuse that confession as'whinging'--and disrespectful, even if your times aint been so good. I am betting most peoples experience with school and whatnot hasn't been that cool either!

scrybe, everyone is different. You can have two siblings and one may get bullied at school and out of that he becomes a 'winner', just to 'show em' and ther other one--also bullied is so deeply scarred by it that he turns to drugs, and what makes it worse is his brothers attitude that he suffered the same and therefore 'you must be waek' etc etc add in the blanks. And ALl that will do is create further negativity for the person.

the FACT is is that people ARE doing drugs, and have all kinds os self-destructive habits so thers no point in just throwing cliches at them to shame them because that DONT WORK. Clear? it doesn't go deep enough for many people. they also may not have the same worldview as you about 'getting through and being successful--a winner'. All they feel is pain and want to escape from it. So faced with this you comin on all smug and saying how you 'came through' is FINE for you but not for him her. It just makes YOU feel strong and powerful in comparison with the image you have of a 'whinger'

it is true that SOME people on ciggies and even heroin can by force of willpower eventually free themselves from the habit, but not all can ---thus there should be a DIVERSE choice for people. For adults. Diverse help. because people die--which is what this thread's about. Words dont mean shit if your daughter, son, dad, mum, lover, friend is dead--right?

[Scrybe]

I think willpower and free choice are equally distributed, and possibly are the only two things that are equally distributed. The difference between suffering adversity and overcoming adversity is primarily one of attitude. All the resources in the world wont make a damned bit of difference without that. I don't see how telling people who are suffering adversity that they're further deficient (by being deficient in willpower) is really the best way to help them. I think it compounds the problem.

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

I think willpower and free choice are equally distributed, and possibly are the only two things that are equally distributed. The difference between suffering adversity and overcoming adversity is primarily one of attitude. All the resources in the world wont make a damned bit of difference without that. I don't see how telling people who are suffering adversity that they're further deficient (by being deficient in willpower) is really the best way to help them. I think it compounds the problem.

I keep asking you and you keep not answering me?

HAVE you seen the link above titled Iboga Therapy? Yes or no? It is very important question because IF we talk about this subject and dont research about it we are really talking blind.

Iboga Therapy

There it is. Watch all parts of it and then let me know.

[3shiftgtr]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

I The difference between suffering adversity and overcoming adversity is primarily one of attitude. All the resources in the world wont make a damned bit of difference without that.

And attitude boils down to what is in one's SOUL. The human soul can't be co-opted for change because it takes REAL HUMAN INTERACTION for that to happen; not a gov't program or broad scope legislation.

One on one. Human to human. The gift of connection and humanity....in the attempts to change the soul.

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by elixzer

I keep asking you and you keep not answering me?

HAVE you seen the link above titled Iboga Therapy? Yes or no? It is very important question because IF we talk about this subject and dont research about it we are really talking blind.

Iboga Therapy

There it is. Watch all parts of it and then let me know.

uh....you have 't asked me anything until now, dude. I just stepped in to clarify a few terms like meritocracy and who did the study you referred to. beyond that, I was just pointing out that both you and fumblefingers were guilty of some pretty shoddy arguing and, the structure of arguments being my stock in trade for several years, I kinda hoped you'd both raise your game a little.

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr

And attitude boils down to what is in one's SOUL. The human soul can't be co-opted for change because it takes REAL HUMAN INTERACTION for that to happen; not a gov't program or broad scope legislation.

One on one. Human to human. The gift of connection and humanity....in the attempts to change the soul.

I agree completely with that sentiment. While society can have some impact by generally reflecting the notion that we all have equal willpower and freedom (though presently heavily unequal distribution of other resources and opportunities), it is going to require great one-on-one efforts to effect and sustain a change within society.

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

uh....you have 't asked me anything until now, dude. I just stepped in to clarify a few terms like meritocracy and who did the study you referred to. beyond that, I was just pointing out that both you and fumblefingers were guilty of some pretty shoddy arguing and, the structure of arguments being my stock in trade for several years, I kinda hoped you'd both raise your game a little.

so are you watching it yet...?

[Scrybe]

nah, I'm busy practicing my jazz

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

nah, I'm busy practicing my jazz

Do you intend to in the near future?

[fumblefingers]

we refuse to watch your film until our conditions are met.

are you or are you not stating that the use of cannabis, peyote and psychedelic mushrooms is advised for anyone under any circumstances, for positive therapeutic purposes? yes or no?

if yes, please completely and concisely make the case yourself if you can.

last chance.

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

we refuse to watch your film until our conditions are met.

You cannot possibly learn until you look, and do the research obviously.

are you or are you not stating that the use of cannabis, peyote and psychedelic mushrooms is advised for anyone under any circumstances, for positive therapeutic purposes? yes or no? if yes, please completely and concisely make the case yourself if you can.
last chance.

Cannabis is not an entheogen. I do not recommend using cannabis as some form of self-medication--as in escape from reality. However some people claim it is the only 'medicine' that helps a disease they might have. So of course people should be able to have access to it if they so wish.
The utterly ignorant so-called 'war on drugs' went onto make cannabis such a forbidden fruit that it became the cool thing to do for many many generations of youth who may not have been that attracted to it before.

This is a culture which is completely insane, and which on one hand preaches the evils of 'drugs' whilst PUSHING DRUGS onlto millions of schoolchildren some very young indeed! But I don't hear your cynicism aimed at those drugs, and what all that means.

If you had a child who was sniffing glue would you rather they stayed sniffing glue or smoked cannabis. Yes or no? Do you get my point?

Drugs like MDMA and are not psychedelics but are chemicals which encourage a depth of openeness and empathy (hence 'empathogen') in the user which in a therapeutic context can be very healing indeed because they help remove blocks which oridniarily could take many sessions to overcome just by talking with a therapist, if at all!!)

And the answer is yes to your question. In any intelligent society which deeply understands the nature of sacred plants and substances they are the source of healing, and this understanding goes way back in our species history knowledge of which has been suppressed from us in 'modern' civlization.
As from there, I have already given a GREAT example of evidence for 'my case'--example the video link above about Iboga Therapy-- which you absurdly refuse to watch. In other words your not making sense...?

[604bourne123]

It seems that fumblefingers and Elixer have taken over each matching wits and journalism skills so we have a recorded debate of pros and cons for the world to read and comment on.A lot of music is related to different events in history the ebb and flow of drugs is no exception.

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by 604bourne123

It seems that fumblefingers and Elixer have taken over each matching wits and journalism skills so we have a recorded debate of pros and cons for the world to read and comment on.A lot of music is related to different events in history the ebb and flow of drugs is no exception.

Sorry. I dont mean to have 'taken over'. I look foreward to hearing more perspectives about this

[zappafan99]

I think of animals as basically chemical/electrical machines with a hydraulic body wrapped in a sausage tube of flesh. We like to interact internally and externally through our sensations and react through emotions. Music is a drug. Food is a drug. Psychology is drug. Abstinence is a drug. If you offer some people the most intense way to adjust their internal chemicals whether shooting up, jumping out of a plane or fasting and flogging oneself...some of them will do it. Why does it matter if someone you'll never know or meet uses them. Who are any of us to think we should tell someone else what to do with their own bodies. Sounds Orwellian to me. On the other hand, when your decisions endanger others (your children, stealing to support a habit, ect) or you take away another life form's freedoms, then we as a group have to take action against you. Outside of that, to me, you are just trying to force your own viewpoint on another and that of course just pushes people the other way ...to drugs.

[604bourne123]

zappafan99 so you are saying he has no one to play ball with him,which beliddles his argument.were talking about Elixzer.

[fumblefingers]

MDMA huh? You mean ecstasy. Look at the last sentence below. Remember? - You agreed that drugs are reducers.

The thing that lifts you up, then throws you down.

You're a dumbasss, drug promoter elixer. Done with you.







Effects reported by users once the acute effects of MDMA have worn off include:

• Psychological
  • Anxiety, even panic attacks
  • Depression
  • Irritability or aggression
  • Fatigue or malaise
  • Agitation or restlessness
  • Impaired attention, focus, and concentration, as well as drive and motivation
  • Paradoxal dysphoria through hypersensitivity, see set and setting
  • Residual feelings of empathy, emotional sensitivity, and a sense of closeness to others (afterglow)

• Physiological
  • Dizziness, lightheadedness, or vertigo
  • Gastrointestinal disturbances, such as diarrhea or constipation
  • Headache or migraine
  • Insomnia
  • Aches and pains, from excessive physical activity (e.g., dancing)
  • Jaw soreness, from trismus or bruxism

When they occur, these after subacute effects are typically reported to last up to 3 to 7 days, with the exception of depression, which in some cases has become chronic.

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

MDMA huh? You mean ecstasy. Look at the last sentence below. Remember? - You agreed that drugs are reducers.

The thing that lifts you up, then throws you down.

You're a dumbasss, drug promoter elixer. Done with you.







Effects reported by users once the acute effects of MDMA have worn off include:

• Psychological
  • Anxiety, even panic attacks
  • Depression
  • Irritability or aggression
  • Fatigue or malaise
  • Agitation or restlessness
  • Impaired attention, focus, and concentration, as well as drive and motivation
  • Paradoxal dysphoria through hypersensitivity, see set and setting
  • Residual feelings of empathy, emotional sensitivity, and a sense of closeness to others (afterglow)

• Physiological
  • Dizziness, lightheadedness, or vertigo
  • Gastrointestinal disturbances, such as diarrhea or constipation
  • Headache or migraine
  • Insomnia
  • Aches and pains, from excessive physical activity (e.g., dancing)
  • Jaw soreness, from trismus or bruxism

When they occur, these after subacute effects are typically reported to last up to 3 to 7 days, with the exception of depression, which in some cases has become chronic.

This 'dumbass' takes the time to do the research and watch videos pertaining to the subject at hand, and has life experience with what I am talking about.

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by zappafan99

I think of animals as basically chemical/electrical machines with a hydraulic body wrapped in a sausage tube of flesh. We like to interact internally and externally through our sensations and react through emotions. Music is a drug. Food is a drug. Psychology is drug. Abstinence is a drug. If you offer some people the most intense way to adjust their internal chemicals whether shooting up, jumping out of a plane or fasting and flogging oneself...some of them will do it. Why does it matter if someone you'll never know or meet uses them. Who are any of us to think we should tell someone else what to do with their own bodies. Sounds Orwellian to me. On the other hand, when your decisions endanger others (your children, stealing to support a habit, ect) or you take away another life form's freedoms, then we as a group have to take action against you. Outside of that, to me, you are just trying to force your own viewpoint on another and that of course just pushes people the other way ...to drugs.

I reject the terrible idea that animals are machines! That idea was strongly promoted comes by Rene Descartes who believed that animals were machines and that when they are tortured their cries of horror and pain are mere 'squeaks of an automation'. This idea has been the 'scientific' justification that animals can be used for 'animal vivisection'.

There are many reasons why people will take drugs and I have explored some above, but a big underlying reason will be a dissastisfaction with life, and this is causing a need to want to ESCAPE it---this is obvious. EVEn a rock musician who SEEMS not so deep, and just want to get high--underneath all of the bravado is a living breathing human with feelings etc who is caught up in self destructive behaviour---which end in death .

The fact is no matter what anyone says or does people WILL take drugs. IF you ban and 'machine gun' all the drug pushers to death like someone recommended above, then the kids will sniff GLUE, or anything that will get them 'off their face'---so what are you going to do then? Shoot all the glue sellers, and so on and so on?.......etcetc? So let's get real.



I am stating that if sacred plants and substances were understood and not feared that they are a deep source of healing for destructive habits IF used with respect.

[604bourne123]

so elixzer is no.1.Chronicles of man's seeking the truth continues there is not much I can add so I'll sign off.

[elixzer]

check this out, as it is a very good example of how the empathogen is used in therapy which was its original intention. I am not advocating it be used for 'Raves' or all-the-time recreational, but there again the fact remains that this IS what happens, and if so it should be NOT criminalized and in this way can be regulated along with proper education about its more intelligent use. What the ignorant so-called 'war on drugs' does is it glamourizes the drugs it prohibits and the kids do it anyway, and the gangsters sell it, and it gets mixed with other stuff, and the doses are not known.
When THAT is banned underground makers come up with another type which is nont 'controlled' and then that gets controlled and on and on in a silly and destructive farce, because the war on drugs IS a farce

This source is far more intelligent and goes into the right way to understand and use MDMA, and psychedelics, in a therapeutic way which can be very powerful and healing.
The Nature of the MDMA Experience and Its Role in Healing, Psychotherapy, and Spiritual Practice