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At the very least interesting and summing up how it is, even if I don't agree with all the conclusions.
Jens
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07-20-2014 11:08 AM
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I'm a huge fan BTW. A world treasure he is. I wish we could see more of him like this. Lets get him a jazz cable show!
Anyway, I can't disagree with much of what John said because i think he spoke the truth throughout.
Regarding support for the art of jazz:
- He mentioned government, but failed to mention that private institutions and individuals support symphonies and ballets too. You should see the size of the donor lists and "contribution levels" in the programs of some of these symphonies! Maybe it comes from the desire to cultivate culture, maybe its to give back, maybe its for love of music and art, maybe its for ego, it doesn't matter.
- So I would stress that support should come from private corporations and individuals too. There are some unbelievably rich tycoons, as well as a lot of other people who have some spare change and who love music. Jazz ambassadors can and should lobby them too.
- I realize that its easy to think of government when we're looking for solutions to big problems, but that is an instinct that requires a lot of caution. The government is full of bureaucratic inefficiency, incompetency, and waste. He mentioned that symphonies and ballets lose money. Well that applies to government too. Its very tempting for the individual to think of government debt as "not their debt". Yet they/we want more and more from the government. Its strange. People understand business and personal failures but fail to conceive of the government failing until it happens. I'm no psychologist but I would hazard a guess that this mentality stems from one's childhood views, hopes, and needs where their parents are concerned.
Regarding the record industry and gigs:
I read a book Bathed In Lightning recently about John and the 60s. Carla Bley was quoted making some comments about jazz gigs drying up in New York except for Miles, Trane and a small handful of others. (50 bands vying for 5 gigs in town). Well, that was '66 or '67!
Being realistic:
Jazz doesn't get the support that classical does because its a folk music. It doesn't have the same stature as classical music, in almost any way. Its a street music and club music. Well, clubs are small, can only fit so many people, aren't comfortable for many mature adults with professional careers, families, stress, busy schedules etc. Plus they're more seedy and located in higher crime neighborhoods in many cases. They aren't going to raise the cover charge to $10K per head any time soon. Miles recognized this and wanted to play in stadiums, after observing Hendrix. John M mentioned festivals here. That's good.
- If one wants to preserve jazz or promote jazz in a fashion like classical, look to the JALC model. I love that place. Its a great big, safe, upscale, clean, fun, multiple stage, beautiful venue. It has concert like rooms (with approved adult sippy cups with booze allowed - nice!) and Dizzy's club for a jazz club feel. Awesome!
Regarding the music and the future of the art:
Its a viscous cycle that he mentioned. Meaning - if there's very little market for the music, how can we expect a sizable and motivated set of new composers and players to arise? I agree that any such artists will have to find "new forms" (as John likes to say) that have a popular appeal in some form or fashion - much like swing did 80 years ago, like John did with the MO, like Wes and Benson did with CTI, and like Metheny did with PMG. They were all different, but had a larger appeal. (Big John probably wouldn't like the CTI example - sorry John!).
But rock killed jazz, and hip-hop killed rock. The culture plane is going down folks, what do we do now?
Last edited by fumblefingers; 07-20-2014 at 12:33 PM.
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I think we realize that people have many options and few will choose jazz guitar as a priority, or jazz at all.
Originally Posted by fumblefingers
For most people, the purpose of music is to be a back drop for their celebration / party / gathering / what have you. Aside from a few stars, musicians are no more interesting to them than ushers, wait staff, and security personnel are.
It is important to remember that most people---and I mean most people who listen to music on the radio, buy CDs, even go to shows---have zero interest in music theory or history or with whether so-and-so has good technique or whether he stole his best licks from such-and-such. (I don't think MOST people who heard Charlie Christian with Benny Goodman cared about those things either.) Swing was popular because of the way it made people feel when they heard it; for the overwhelming majority of people who buy records today, their dominant feeling when hearing contemporary jazz is "change the station." They couldn't care less how "good" it is; they only care how they feel when they hear it, and that is anything but good.
I think we have to accept that most people wouldn't care a fig if every jazzman on Earth fell dead tonight. We can't change that. What we can do is keep playing the music we love because we love it. That will have to be enough for us.
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Great interview and so sad because he speaks so much truth. Europeans grow up being taught to appreciate the Arts and in American Art is one of first things schools cut to cut their budgets. Culture builds community, builds loyalty to your countries artists.
Also Jazz is a lifestyle not just a style of music if you read about the history of Jazz and Jazz musicians you see what a Brotherhood Jazz is. Other that a couple times where Jazz was dance music, it never has been that popular with the masses, so those who play it, fans of it, and support it are a family struggling together.
JensL thanks for posting.
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The unfortunate truth, people used to dance on Jazz, now people are paying to attend DJs mixing someone else's simple mind stuff!!
Instant gratification, short span of attention, consumption, fast changing trends and fashion, people wants to be entertained and identify (reality sh*t I mean shows).
It is not gonna be better it will get worst actually...
Art is either becoming a product of consumption in which case it needs to be simple and generate fast cash or will go underground and niche stuff for connoisseurs.
Piracy will always exist and will increase; so to be an artist and survive will mean you go on tour, in clubs and you perform...no longer will someone cash and stay at home.
The audience then need to go and support their artists by attending concert...
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Excellent thread! I think John is a brilliant thinker as well as player. The Mahavishnu Orchestra was like a lightning rod for me musically when he burst upon the scene. I connected via John to Tony Williams and his lifetime orchestra. More interest followed in acoustic guitar music. Yet here he is today "selling one tenth of the records" he used to and acting as his own record company, because "if not, I wouldn't have a record contract."
His insights into the business of music are accurate. Radical change in distribution and marketing, digital downloads, pirating. A tough business before any of this became much tougher, but with some promise,too. But the issue of lack of live venues and support for musicians are an enormous problem. I can understand that one may not likely be able to survive as the romantic vision of a jazz musician. Teach, bartend, coach. I don't know what. Forget primary care!
We do need a Renaissance in jazz in this country. Just how I have no idea. As an aside, the other night I listened and played along through nearly twenty of the Country Top Forty - January 2014 on YT. Good musicians, but there is a definite "country rap" thing happening that makes a lot of it sound "the same". Kind of too bright and shiny. Repetitive. Get yur' groove on. Ya feel me?
We need the depth and intimacy of real jazz with a touch of the engagement of Brazilian style music.
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Most serious jazz musicians are not trying to entertain large audiences. And they're succeeding!
I don't see why jazz should be any more popular than it is.
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I think that great music, made for artful purposes should be more popular than it is. That's because I think that we should value and reward greatness more than we value and reward garbage.
where are our values headed when the best new movie coming out is The Purge: Anarchy?
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Thanks for the post, Jens. Very thought provoking and from someone who has "scaled the mountain."
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An honest observation from a jazz insider...so what's new? Jazz has no value in the marketplace and that's why it attracts no smart business people. This means mostly financial dummies get involved, because anyone can do something that loses money. The US gov't and most of it's citizens think that if aspects of our culture are important, they will survive by means of commercial support...people will want it and spend money on it....the means by which we judge values in the US.
It's ignorant to not realize that the future of jazz depends on it's fans and musicians to be the advocates for jazz. Nobody else is going to do it.
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I think JALC is a step in the right direction, what do you think?
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bahaha I love the sarcastic way he says "smooooooth jazz" in the first couple minutes! Hilarious
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yeah i think he does it twice. he calls it cliched.
i think that's true. its kind of like... bubble gum jazz, is it not?
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his accent is kind of a blend of New Yorker and German, yet he is from England.
maybe from travelling all the time.
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"The Mission of Jazz at Lincoln Center is to Entertain, Enrich and Expand a Global Community For Jazz Through Performance, Education and Advocacy." Originally Posted by fumblefingers
It's better than nothing, but up until 2 or 3 years ago, Wynton was running it like a jazz museum to preserve jazz history, rather than to make jazz history. FWIW, it is the largest jazz organization on the planet.
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I'd be really interested in the history of musician financial success.
Where there a large number of musicians financial successful in the 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800s? Where there any? Wasn't Mozart basically middle class financially? How about just the rank and file player in the orchestra in the 1700s?
There was a period say from the 1950s to 1980s where a lot of musicians could make a living playing live. Was that just a flash, a small moment in time in the history of man? Was that the best of times to be a musician?
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Look, the most popular things are the ones that entertain the largest numbers of people. Duh. Jazz musicians are not trying to do that. (Except of course, for those who are----most of them play smooth jazz or sing standards---and they tend to be despised by the likes of us!) The ability to improvise well matters to us but most people---and that includes most people who buy records and go to shows---don't care about improvisation at all. In fact, they find long improvisations to be selfish and repugnant. They know it is an attempt to impress them rather than entertain them and, frankly, they don't care how well Johnny So-And-So can play his saxophone; they care how they feel when they hear it. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
And here's the thing: we love jazz because of the way we feel when we hear it. It's just a niche taste, like licorice. (Jerry Garcia said that Grateful Dead fans were like people who loved licorice. Most people don't like it at all, he said, but those who like it REALLY like it.)
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Me too. Where would that information be gathered? Originally Posted by fep
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
i know all of that. no one is suggesting that it be pop, Mark. that wasn't the suggestion at all.
and to your earlier response, i think you missed it. who is "we" anyway? its not about you, or me, or 99% of the forum members here. its not about jazz guitar, and its not about hobbyists and enthusiasts.
Mr. McLaughlin was making points about;
1. the recording industry,
2. preserving and promoting jazz music in an adult culture and in the schools,
3. serious musicians who wish to devote their entire lives to composing and playing contemporary jazz music. he mentioned students attending Berklee, Manhattan School, and UNT.
Not to pick on you but i don't think you paid sufficient attention, and i don't think that you think about these issues seriously, and i don't think that you have offered anything constructive here at all. anybody can give up.
There are a few pros on this forum, and their are a few people like me who were former music majors at great schools, teachers for a while or still, and are current patrons of the arts as adults. We invest in it and spend time in it. We are thinking of the future, as is McLaughlin. And with regards to America he is clearly concerned and frustrated. I think that's because he wants America to do well because he likes it. He can always gig in Europe and the East, and he knows it.
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[QUOTE=fumblefingers;444442 Not to pick on you but i don't think you paid sufficient attention, and i don't think that you think about these issues seriously, and i don't think that you have offered anything constructive here at all. anybody can give up.[/QUOTE]
To begin with the ending, I have not given up. I play jazz guitar hours every day. Every day. That's the opposite of giving up. That's a deep commitment. Further, I spend time here, a community of other jazz guitar players. And I not only come here, I help out by serving as a moderator. That's a commitment too. I think both of those ongoing actions are constructive. And again, they are the opposite of giving up.
But I will admit I never expected to make a living playing jazz.
Consider what public schools have done to reading and writing. As Joseph Sobran put it, "In 100 years we have gone from teaching Greek and Latin in high school to teaching remedial English in college." I think it best for public schools to leave jazz alone.
Most Americans believe that 'arts funding" goes to arts no one cares about. (If anyone cared about them, they wouldn't need such funding.) The symphony is like broccoli--'good for you' but few actually enjoy it.
Jazz was born in whorehouses to entertain the clientele. It worked. It lost its connection with people who buy music. The only 'fix' for that is to play music people want to buy. Or play what you happen to love despite its being unpopular and realize that it is part of life to place inordinate value on some things that most other people care nothing about.
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The American public has been dumbed down to the point in which they can't even speak in full, clearly articulated sentences....(watch Idiocracy)....but then again the USA has never embraced intellectual achievement. So we get what we deserve...Listening to Jazz requires an attention span.
Music and Art are always the first to go when there are budget cuts in schools.....god forbid they cut football...the parents would be up in arms if that happened, but then again they ain't none too bright either.Last edited by djangoles; 07-21-2014 at 10:33 AM.
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Well, Charlie Christian couldn't speak in full, clearly articulated sentences either... I love him, God knows, but he wasn't an educated guy. Originally Posted by djangoles
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That may or may not be true, but I'm sure he didn't embrace stupidity..... Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Education doesn't = intelligence
and another view
It?s not just David Byrne and Radiohead: Spotify, Pandora and how streaming music kills jazz and classical - Salon.com
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No, Charlie did not embrace stupidity (-what would that even mean?) but he was known for muttering nonsense syllables and saying little otherwise. He wasn't a well educated guy. (The one magazine article that appeared under his name was widely held, even then, to have been ghosted.) I suspect a child just like him today would be assessed as having a learning disability. I'm not knocking him, but those seem to be the facts. Originally Posted by djangoles
I think the three most important jazz guitarists of all are Charlie, Django, and Wes Montgomery, followed by Joe Pass. None of those guys were intellectuals. I don't know if any of them went to college. (For that matter, I don't know how many of them finished high school.) But of course they were musical masters of the first order and I celebrate their achievements. They didn't take up jazz because someone told them it was "America's classical music" and "culturally important." They loved music and wanted to play it. Unlike most of their peers, they excelled at it.
Many of us forget that for most people who wrote about the cultural importance of jazz were looking at something that was popular and wondering 'what does this say about society?' Such cultural historians are now writing about the "Twilight" movies, social media, and reality TV. Those things are popular and cultural historians (and others) wish to weigh in on What It All Means. They aren't writing about jazz because it is culturally insignificant now. (So is philosophy, so is theology, so is chess, so is...)
It makes no sense to me to argue that something DESERVES to be socially significant. Social significance is determined by what a significant portion of a society are doing (or have stopped doing, such as smoking). Lots of people like to watch trends and comment on them. I would rather play guitar. That few care beans about jazz guitar is the way it is. That won't stop me from playing. And it won't start me complaining, either.
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(Culturally) embracing stupidity would be something like choosing Football over Music and Arts...it happens all over this country every year.
For all the nonsense about Football and Sports in general being good for teaching a youth about teamwork, discipline, setting goals, camaraderie, etc...all can also be found in various school music programs, sans the violence. (Maybe I was lucky that in High School we had a very good Concert/Jazz/Marching Band that went on to compete nationally numerous times. Can't say the Football team ever made it past county....lol.)
I've never said you have to be a deep intellectual to play or even appreciate Jazz, but if you believe "Social significance is determined by what a significant portion of a society are doing" than maybe a culture that fosters at the very least a most basic intellectual curiosity (in anything) may fare a little bit better....(as it does in many other parts of the world.)
I for one believe that we are way too far down the road to turn back.... Enough of my monday morning rant
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