Jazz, flat keys, and guitar players

[Doctor Jeff]

When reading music if you can't C# you will Bb.

[MarkRhodes]

But is it brighter than D#?

I can't help thinking of Bach's Fugue No. 4 in C-sharp minor. Why not D-flat minor?

C (major) is not a sharp key but it is not a flat one and several bright, cheerful standards (Sunny Side of the Street, All of Me, Don't Get Around Much Anymore) are in C. (The lyrics of the latter two songs aren't chipper but the feel of the songs definitely is.) Would Sunny Side be as sunny in Eb?

Who would play Stormy Weather or Lush Life in C?

Someone messaged me privately and said that piano players wrote many of the standards and the flat keys 'lay out' better on piano. (I'd never heard that before.)

[ronjazz]

"D minor is the saddest of all possible keys": Nigel Tufnel, Spinal Tap.

[JohnRoss]

I grew up playing in E, A, D, and G, common for rock / blues / occasional country players of my era. Learning jazz was a sea change: I don't think I've yet played a jazz tune in E, the dominant key of my youth! I'm not complaining, just noticing.

[Lately, I've noticed myself repeating the same anecdotes to people who've already heard them, so apologies in advance if I've told this one too often before.]

So it was like 1980 or 82, and I was in the audience, getting a round in at the bar at half-time, and I found myself elbow to elbow with the performer himself, Slim Gaillard (the man who put the 'Switcheroony' into 'Satin Doll'). So I said, great gig, loving it, he said glad you like it as if he wanted more conversation, so I said how nice it was to hear jazz played in guitar-ish keys, and he said he didn't understand. And I said, you know, E, A, keys that are natural on the guitar (blank look), as opposed to Bb and Eb, horn keys like that. And he looked even more blank, as if he'd genuinely never heard this, and said something like "Never thought of that before," which made me feel particularly stupid. The people at my table were anxious to know what my conversation with the great man had been, by which time I was at the floor-swallow-me stage of embarrassment - fortunately I was spared because the second set was starting, but that lasted no time at all because the first thing Slim Gaillard said as he slipped his guitar strap over was, "This is for a guy in the audience, it's gonna be in the key of... zee."

[MarkRhodes]

Many solo guitar arrangements somehow seem to migrate to open string keys.
It happens also at times in guitar led ensembles.

Sid Jacobs is a contemporary guitarist who a) uses open strings and b) wonders why so many jazz guitarists seem to avoid them.

Here's a clip of him talking about his discovery of using voicings with open strings.

[bako]

Open strings are applicable in any harmonic area once the thinking advances beyond 1, 5 and possibly 3 but as Sid says our concern with symmetrical forms that cover 12 keys pulls our attention away from the highly individualistic sounds possible with open strings.

[JakeAcci]

Great clip, thankyou Mark. I have that Sid Jacob Bill Evans book but haven't dug into it much.

An improvisational task I've spent some time with over the years is to pick an open string and assign it a function within a key - so maybe the open B as the minor 3rd in the key of Ab...and then explore with that in mind.

I was just thinking today that it would be fun to take some time, at some point, to get more systematic about it and really explore each open string as all 12 possible um 'scale' tones within different keys (B as the root of B, as the b2 of Bb, the 9 of A, etc.)

[bligon]

Couple of thoughts.

There are so many standards in books in the flat keys [to a degree] probably determined by keys comfortable to the range of horns and singers. My guess is they were leading the bands and picked the keys that made them sound good and they ended up being the 'standard' keys in fake books. The tunes that end up in the book are not necessarily the original key. Most of us play Girl from Ipanema in F. I have worked with a singer who plays it in Eb and another in D. I once asked some bandmates if they wanted to do it in the original key - they all presumed F, but it was in Db. Anyone else play it in that key? Someone publishes the Bill Evans version of My Foolish Heart in Bb. Bill Evans played it in A [and it didn't sound country].

There are some interesting open string things that can happen working from flat keys. There's an interesting recording of Frank Vignola playing Donna Lee in Ab, but using some great open string ideas, especially on the head.

I have my students try several keys when picking a tune to feature them - plus we play tunes in the 'standard' keys - and then transpose a lot.

Modulating on the gig can be fun and musical if you trust your band. If something like Take The "A" Train gets called, I'll play the head in C, solo in Ab, then E, then bring it back to C, hand in off to the next guy in Ab. On the next tune we may start up a half step and play in three new keys. After four tunes, we have played in 12 keys. It can get risky. A couple of weeks ago, the tune that got called was One note samba - fast. The key in rotation in our little game was B major. It made some things easier other things harder. It was fun. We'll do it again next week-end.
Bert Ligon

[randalljazz]

jobim's autograph manuscript for girl from ipanema is in F...

[bligon]

randall: I should have made clear that by original key, I meant where many of us heard first heard Ipanema- from the Getz-Gilberto recording.

[cosmic gumbo]

[Dave70]

Are the majority of (frequently performed) classical guitar pieces in flat keys? (I have no idea.)

By far no. Usually sharp keys, D minor shows up a bit though. lol

[RonD]

[Lately, I've noticed myself repeating the same anecdotes to people who've already heard them, so apologies in advance if I've told this one too often before.]

So it was like 1980 or 82, and I was in the audience, getting a round in at the bar at half-time, and I found myself elbow to elbow with the performer himself, Slim Gaillard (the man who put the 'Switcheroony' into 'Satin Doll'). So I said, great gig, loving it, he said glad you like it as if he wanted more conversation, so I said how nice it was to hear jazz played in guitar-ish keys, and he said he didn't understand. And I said, you know, E, A, keys that are natural on the guitar (blank look), as opposed to Bb and Eb, horn keys like that. And he looked even more blank, as if he'd genuinely never heard this, and said something like "Never thought of that before," which made me feel particularly stupid. The people at my table were anxious to know what my conversation with the great man had been, by which time I was at the floor-swallow-me stage of embarrassment - fortunately I was spared because the second set was starting, but that lasted no time at all because the first thing Slim Gaillard said as he slipped his guitar strap over was, "This is for a guy in the audience, it's gonna be in the key of... zee."

JohnRoss,
I never heard it. Great story!
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers, Ron

[randalljazz]

On a related note, I learned Autumn Leaves in E minor and still prefer to play it that way. When I play with my group though I have to switch to G minor, which I believe was the key it was written in. Apparently Wes and Joe play it in E minor, so I feel OK with my preference. I think it sounds more wistful in E minor, more jazzy (swings harder) in G minor.

the original key is E minor. might have been miles who decreed that it be in G minor forever after...

[daveg]

Not sure if this is relevant but:

Williams and Monk presumably wrote it in Gb. Most written versions are in Gb. Williams played Trumpet; Monk played piano.

Wes played it in Gb.

DG

[Subfeeder]

In a Joe Pass video (from memory The Blues Side Of Jazz) he advises not to play consecutive tunes in "guitar friendly" keys (E, A, D, G) in a set as the ringing sound of open strings will make songs in flat keys sound dull. Not sure of his exact wording but it's along those lines.

[MarkRhodes]

I have heard that Irving Berlin wrote all his tunes in the same key, that he had a special keyboard (a transposing piano) and wrote everything he wrote in Gb. I don't know if he picked that key for ease of playing or ease of singing.

[MarkRhodes]

By far no. Usually sharp keys, D minor shows up a bit though. lol

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I went through a classical phase when I was younger but I didn't listen to much guitar music.

[MarkRhodes]

Great clip, thankyou Mark. I have that Sid Jacob Bill Evans book but haven't dug into it much.

I have Sid's book on "The Changes" but haven't worked at it yet. He's an amazing player. It's interesting that as good, and knowledgeable, as he is, he still refers to bebop as a "natural" language built on the simple foundation of guide tones, connecting thirds and sevenths.

[JohnRoss]

...in Gb. I don't know if he picked that key for ease of playing or ease of singing.

It uses all the black notes. Many stride or boogie-woogie pianists like keys like Gb or Cb for that reason, lets them give it welly without worrying too much about missing the notes, and even if they do it often sounds like ornamentation. Also helps in the left hand, they like to play tenths or twelfths.

[M-ster]

In a Joe Pass video (from memory The Blues Side Of Jazz) he advises not to play consecutive tunes in "guitar friendly" keys (E, A, D, G) in a set as the ringing sound of open strings will make songs in flat keys sound dull. Not sure of his exact wording but it's along those lines.

I remember watching this, too. But, I came away with the impression that Joe was saying that it got boring to hear the open string keys after hearing too much of it (i.e., he wasn't saying that the flat keys sounded dull by comparison - he was saying that the open strings lose their effect when it's over done).

But, maybe that was just my take ...

[AmundLauritzen]

the original key is E minor. might have been miles who decreed that it be in G minor forever after...

Wouldn't surprise me. Miles knocked a kid for playing Green Dolphin Street in the key of C. He told him to go home, practice and learn it in E flat instead.

[Subfeeder]

I remember watching this, too. But, I came away with the impression that Joe was saying that it got boring to hear the open string keys after hearing too much of it (i.e., he wasn't saying that the flat keys sounded dull by comparison - he was saying that the open strings lose their effect when it's over done).

But, maybe that was just my take ...

That may well be it. I'll have to re-watch the video, lots of funny and unusual advice (best way to tune your guitar - get a friend to do it)

[AmundLauritzen]

I remember watching this, too. But, I came away with the impression that Joe was saying that it got boring to hear the open string keys after hearing too much of it (i.e., he wasn't saying that the flat keys sounded dull by comparison - he was saying that the open strings lose their effect when it's over done).

But, maybe that was just my take ...

That's right. More specifically he said the audience would fall asleep after two or three tunes played like that in a row.
Good old Joe

[MarkRhodes]

That's right. More specifically he said the audience would fall asleep after two or three tunes played like that in a row.
Good old Joe

He sure knew a lot about what audiences liked, esp audiences for guitar players! He played tunes (heads) beautifully.