Hey Guys

[Brian0192]

Hey Everyone,

My name is Brian and I'm from Long Island, New York. I've been playing guitar for 6 years now, and I'm 17 years old. I am a huge fan of jazz music, especially bebop, hard bop, and general strong, open jazz improvisation.

As a result, I'm also really into the fusion guitarists. I prefer the distorted sound of and electric guitar over a clean sound (although in context that could change). Not a huge fan of the processed, thin sounds, a la Mike Stern. More into, say, a late 90's Holdsworth tone.

Overall, I actually wouldn't say I'm a fan of jazz guitar. I can appreciate the textual ambience of a rich, jazz-ridden harmony or changes on a guitar, but I can't really say I'm a fan of the vibes I get from a clean guitar improvising. Very dry, harmonically empty, just an overly airy sound I'm not very into. Not trying to start arguments, that's just what I hear when I listen to, say, Jim hall or Joe Pass. I'm a huge fan of the other instruments of jazz honestly, and I love to try and emulate the raunchiness of a saxophone or trumpet on the guitar.

Anyways, hopefully I will stick around the forum and it'll be fun while it lasts. Thanks for reading guys!

-Brian

[pierre richard]

welcome brian...

glad you are here...

ask the questions and you will get an answer from some great players and educators here on this forum..

time on the instrument..pierre

[brwnhornet59]

Welcome to the forums.


If you find clean jazz guitar playing harmonically empty, yet a distorted guitar sound full of harmony, I would pose to you that you must either not know what harmony is or you erred in your description. Or is it just jazz guitar playing in general that is harmonically empty in your opinion? Again I question your definition of what harmony is. Either way it is fine with me however you feel, of course I would then have to ask you why you were in jazz guitar forum at all.

Anyways, hopefully I will stick around the forum and it'll be fun while it lasts.

This does not sound very encouraging either. Do you usually not stick to things you start, or were you just saying the first thing that popped in your head? Why wouldn't it last? Will you be moving to an area that does not have internet service? You wove a very conflicted web for your first post. But none the less I hope you find what you are looking for.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by Brian0192

Hey Everyone,

My name is Brian and I'm from Long Island, New York. I've been playing guitar for 6 years now, and I'm 17 years old. I am a huge fan of jazz music, especially bebop, hard bop, and general strong, open jazz improvisation.

As a result, I'm also really into the fusion guitarists. I prefer the distorted sound of and electric guitar over a clean sound (although in context that could change). Not a huge fan of the processed, thin sounds, a la Mike Stern. More into, say, a late 90's Holdsworth tone.

Overall, I actually wouldn't say I'm a fan of jazz guitar. I can appreciate the textual ambience of a rich, jazz-ridden harmony or changes on a guitar, but I can't really say I'm a fan of the vibes I get from a clean guitar improvising. Very dry, harmonically empty, just an overly airy sound I'm not very into. Not trying to start arguments, that's just what I hear when I listen to, say, Jim hall or Joe Pass. I'm a huge fan of the other instruments of jazz honestly, and I love to try and emulate the raunchiness of a saxophone or trumpet on the guitar.

Anyways, hopefully I will stick around the forum and it'll be fun while it lasts. Thanks for reading guys!

-Brian

Welcome aboard Brian. A couple of things for you to think about just a little bit;

Distortion can be very effective indeed. It makes a big statement. But - just take it for what it is - distorted. If you don't like the sound of a clean guitar, do you really like the sound of the guitar at all? Or does it have to be distorted to the point that its sounds like something artificial?

The two back-to-back statements that you made about "textual ambience of a rich, jazz-ridden harmony" and then "harmonically empty", are contradictory. Both of the players that you mentioned have made a living playing with a lot of rich textural harmonies. Harmonically empty music would be music that has very little harmonic movement and/or very little harmonic complexity (tensions etc). Hip-hop and pop would be much better examples of that.

[Brian0192]

Hey guys,

First off, thank you Pierre! There clearly seems to be some very knowledgeable people on this forum, and I will do my best to make the most of it.

Clearly my use of English lead to some confusion. I'll try to clean it up a bit.

First of all, before I respond quote for quote, I'd like to just mention that when I say harmonic quality or harmonics, I'm not talking about anything relating to harmonies. I'm using the term harmonics as a sound concept, and harmonies as the musical term.

Harmonics, to me, is the breathing character of the sound. The harmonic qualities of a guitarist's touch and tone are apparent, regardless of how it responds in context to there use of harmony. By Harmony, I mean the textbook definition, as in simultaneous pitches.

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Welcome to the forums.


If you find clean jazz guitar playing harmonically empty, yet a distorted guitar sound full of harmony, I would pose to you that you must either not know what harmony is or you erred in your description. Or is it just jazz guitar playing in general that is harmonically empty in your opinion? Again I question your definition of what harmony is. Either way it is fine with me however you feel, of course I would then have to ask you why you were in jazz guitar forum at all.

As I said in my prior description of the sound theory of "harmonics," and the music concept of "harmony," they are very different words to my mind. Jazz guitar may have a harmonically empty texture when we are approaching it as sound waves, but in practice, actually be full of harmony. They're just simply different things.

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

This does not sound very encouraging either. Do you usually not stick to things you start, or were you just saying the first thing that popped in your head? Why wouldn't it last? Will you be moving to an area that does not have internet service? You wove a very conflicted web for your first post. But none the less I hope you find what you are looking for.

Haha, I'm simply terrible at managing forums. I'm enjoying the debate that I'm already recieving, and the well-informed nature of the many posts on this forum will likely keep me returning. No, I didn't mean to say that as a character trait -- I certainly am not compulsive and will stick to things, I just often have trouble keeping the pace up when it comes to forums.

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

Welcome aboard Brian. A couple of things for you to think about just a little bit;

Distortion can be very effective indeed. It makes a big statement. But - just take it for what it is - distorted. If you don't like the sound of a clean guitar, do you really like the sound of the guitar at all? Or does it have to be distorted to the point that its sounds like something artificial?

I believe the sound of a clean guitar is equal to the sound of a distorted guitar. Distortion isn't artificial -- the first amplifiers ever made, combined with the speakers, when pushed to loud volumes sounded distorted naturally. This was either fought against, with the creation of amplifier technology that would be designed to achieve high volumes with very little saturation, or admired, which resulted in modifications to amplifers to make them saturate with less effort, further. When it comes to the electric guitar, distortion is as natural to it as is a clean sound.

Sure, modern amplifiers, coupled with other gadgets, will certainly give you an "artificial" sound -- because that's what they are. But a natural tube overdrive is just that -- a natural, effortless sound that is made simply with the guitar to the amplifier.

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

The two back-to-back statements that you made about "textual ambience of a rich, jazz-ridden harmony" and then "harmonically empty", are contradictory. Both of the players that you mentioned have made a living playing with a lot of rich textural harmonies. Harmonically empty music would be music that has very little harmonic movement and/or very little harmonic complexity (tensions etc). Hip-hop and pop would be much better examples of that.

Going with my aforementioned definitions of "harmonics" and "harmony," you can see where my statement was actually coming from. The actual sound of a clean guitar, as an example, lacks the breathing, rich, saturated harmonic frequencies which you find in a distorted guitar. However, this doesn't mean you shouldn't like it or it's garbage. It makes each of the sounds intensely different from each other, meaning that neither can be written off as worthless or just a flawed sound of the other.

To further help understand my definitions, most pop songs have very little harmonic complexity -- but can have synth pads rich in harmonics.



I'm not meaning to completely write off clean guitar. I'm simply stating that the tonal qualities I strive for in the instrument, such as harmonics, are often lacking in a clean sound. This is in no way any type of write-off to players such as Joe Pass or Jim Hall, who are phenomenal players in there own right, and inspirations to many. I am simply stating my views, and hope you can all see my side of the debate.

[brwnhornet59]

Good enough for me. Please make yourself at home and join in on the discussions. I hope you find the tone you are looking for. I like you am not a big fan of Stern's tone, but GOD what monster player he is, as is Mr Holdsworth!

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by Brian0192

Hey guys,

First off, thank you Pierre! There clearly seems to be some very knowledgeable people on this forum, and I will do my best to make the most of it.

Clearly my use of English lead to some confusion. I'll try to clean it up a bit.

First of all, before I respond quote for quote, I'd like to just mention that when I say harmonic quality or harmonics, I'm not talking about anything relating to harmonies. I'm using the term harmonics as a sound concept, and harmonies as the musical term.

Harmonics, to me, is the breathing character of the sound. The harmonic qualities of a guitarist's touch and tone are apparent, regardless of how it responds in context to there use of harmony. By Harmony, I mean the textbook definition, as in simultaneous pitches.




As I said in my prior description of the sound theory of "harmonics," and the music concept of "harmony," they are very different words to my mind. Jazz guitar may have a harmonically empty texture when we are approaching it as sound waves, but in practice, actually be full of harmony. They're just simply different things.




Haha, I'm simply terrible at managing forums. I'm enjoying the debate that I'm already recieving, and the well-informed nature of the many posts on this forum will likely keep me returning. No, I didn't mean to say that as a character trait -- I certainly am not compulsive and will stick to things, I just often have trouble keeping the pace up when it comes to forums.




I believe the sound of a clean guitar is equal to the sound of a distorted guitar. Distortion isn't artificial -- the first amplifiers ever made, combined with the speakers, when pushed to loud volumes sounded distorted naturally. This was either fought against, with the creation of amplifier technology that would be designed to achieve high volumes with very little saturation, or admired, which resulted in modifications to amplifers to make them saturate with less effort, further. When it comes to the electric guitar, distortion is as natural to it as is a clean sound.

Sure, modern amplifiers, coupled with other gadgets, will certainly give you an "artificial" sound -- because that's what they are. But a natural tube overdrive is just that -- a natural, effortless sound that is made simply with the guitar to the amplifier.



Going with my aforementioned definitions of "harmonics" and "harmony," you can see where my statement was actually coming from. The actual sound of a clean guitar, as an example, lacks the breathing, rich, saturated harmonic frequencies which you find in a distorted guitar. However, this doesn't mean you shouldn't like it or it's garbage. It makes each of the sounds intensely different from each other, meaning that neither can be written off as worthless or just a flawed sound of the other.

To further help understand my definitions, most pop songs have very little harmonic complexity -- but can have synth pads rich in harmonics.



I'm not meaning to completely write off clean guitar. I'm simply stating that the tonal qualities I strive for in the instrument, such as harmonics, are often lacking in a clean sound. This is in no way any type of write-off to players such as Joe Pass or Jim Hall, who are phenomenal players in there own right, and inspirations to many. I am simply stating my views, and hope you can all see my side of the debate.

Hey Brian.

I'm not sure that there is a debate, but it seems that you have an individualistic application of terms. For example, when you say

"Harmonics, to me, is the breathing character of the sound. The harmonic qualities of a guitarist's touch and tone are apparent"

It seems to me that you are simply referring to things which are traditionally referrred to as pitch and timbre (or tone). And harmonics would be the overtone series????

Maybe one of our resident theory honchos can weigh in here...