Jazzguitar unplugged

[ronduitvierkant]

I'm considering buying a Jazz guitar to practice without being amplified. Of course, when i'm playing with other musicians, I will use an amp, but she should have a nice warm tone by herself. Any suggestions? Maybe that topic is already been treated in this forum, in that case, sorry, and show me the way. Many thanks...

I have an old Martin D35 ('70) in good condition (great fine guitar). But she hasn't the same comfort playing as my Yamaha AES 1500 or my Gibson Les Paul Standard. But they both need amplification. Maybe with lighter string (10?) the Martin will do the job?

[mr. beaumont]

An archtop will never sound like a flattop. I suggest you get out there and play a bunch so you can get an idea of what they sound like unplugged...the best acoustic archtop tone is going to be from a solid wood all acoustic archtop...but that's not going to give you a plugged in tone...

So then you get into the world of pickups...there's floating models, which have a specific sound, but it seems more folks equate the "jazz tone" with a wes montgomery routed humbucker sound...but as soon as you start cutting holes in the top you start taking away acoustic ttone...

[kris]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

An archtop will never sound like a flattop. I suggest you get out there and play a bunch so you can get an idea of what they sound like unplugged...the best acoustic archtop tone is going to be from a solid wood all acoustic archtop...but that's not going to give you a plugged in tone...

So then you get into the world of pickups...there's floating models, which have a specific sound, but it seems more folks equate the "jazz tone" with a wes montgomery routed humbucker sound...but as soon as you start cutting holes in the top you start taking away acoustic ttone...

Yes,Yes,Yes....

[mr. beaumont]

It's interesting really, because I think most folks, particularly non jazzers or those just starting out, equate the plugged in jazz tone with a warm, dark, mellow clean tone.

But an acoustic archtop doesn't sound like that! It's a punchy, vibrant, mid to bright tone...it's such a character shift...

[MaxT]

Mr. Beaumont,
That is just too true. It makes me think all over again, about what they were after when they used them for rhythm in the early days. It's a little elusive, because mostly we hear them used for solos and amplified. If one gets hold of old recordings with someone like Eddie Lang playing accompaniment, that gives an idea. Body on the lower strings, no mud, and ring on the higher strings.
Or just go on Youtube and take in some of the demos of archtops unamplified, should give the poster an idea.

[ronduitvierkant]

Very interesting, indeed. I'm wondering why they were using acoustic arch top, for accompaniment instead of, for example an dreadnought flat top, or didn't they? Wasn't it all about volume to get trough the rest of the band. Anyway, a banjo did that job very well .

[mr. beaumont]

Archtops occupy a very different frequency range than a drednaught. A dred would be lost in a big band.

The archtop provided the needed tone, banjo competing volume, in a more expressive and versatile instrument. Thank goodness...i'd hate to hear what jazz sounded like today if banjo was still de rigeur!

[ronduitvierkant]

Mr Baumont, I can't agree more concerning the banjo. But what surprises me is that archtops provided the needed volume, and tone. Until now, I didn't hear any archtop that comes close to the needed volume. Most (all?) of the Gibson's today, for example, are laminated and have a very weak tone, acoustically. Maybe some Ibanez are louder? But you're right: acoustic volume and amplified benefits don't work together very well.

[mr. beaumont]

Ibanez? Not even close!

The enemies of acoustic volume are routed pickups, laminated woods (although I have played some laminte boxes that have surprising volume) and setup.

I recently purchased a loar lh 600...it's an all solid wood, acoustic archtop. With bronze strings, even it's relatively small (16in) body provides surprising volume...add another inch of width and jack up the action to a freddie green approved level and I think I see how archtops competed...

Not that they were really there for the audience...they can be more felt than heard...but if you stripped freddie off those basie records you'd notice!

This is part of my rationale for having multiple guitars...

[MaxT]

Originally Posted by ronduitvierkant

Mr Baumont, I can't agree more concerning the banjo. But what surprises me is that archtops provided the needed volume, and tone. Until now, I didn't hear any archtop that comes close to the needed volume. Most (all?) of the Gibson's today, for example, are laminated and have a very weak tone, acoustically. Maybe some Ibanez are louder? But you're right: acoustic volume and amplified benefits don't work together very well.

I've found that in loud parts of a big band tune, I belt my archtops full-on. They will take it, the flat tops will not. They are not built robustly enough for that kind of attack, the sound turns to mush.
I have a, shall we say, more "athletic" approach for the rhythm, higher action, heavier strings and all that.

[max chill]

Regardless of what people say, almost all the electric progressive players used a flat top when they went acoustic. But they weren't looking for an archtop tone.

John Abercrombie
John McLaughlin
Al DiMeola
Larry Coryell
Steve Khan
Gabor Szabo
John Scofield
Pat Metheny
and so on.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by max chill

Regardless of what people say, almost all the electric progressive players used a flat top when they went acoustic. But they weren't looking for an archtop tone.

John Abercrombie
John McLaughlin
Al DiMeola
Larry Coryell
Steve Khan
Gabor Szabo
John Scofield
Pat Metheny
and so on.

Exactly.

I have a flat top in my guitarsenal as well, and I find my playing is much more "modern" on it...must be the sustain...

[Synchro]

Let me approach this from another direction and maybe this will shed some light. A few years ago I needed to record the acoustic guitar part for the Country Rock song Amie, by the Pure Prairie League. I miked my Heritage Eagle and it was fantastic except it lacked a bit in the high end sparkle. It had body galore but it wasn't really a flat top sound. It was, however, incredibly loud.

I've noticed that flat tops are occasionally used as rhythm guitars in settings In which I would expect to see an archtop. I'm pretty certain that this only works because of modern acoustic pickup/pre-amp systems. Without these they would probably not cut through.

[MaxT]

Originally Posted by Synchro

I've noticed that flat tops are occasionally used as rhythm guitars in settings In which I would expect to see an archtop. I'm pretty certain that this only works because of modern acoustic pickup/pre-amp systems. Without these they would probably not cut through.

You can put money on that.