Does it really matter if your guitar is made in China

[mississippi]

Recently within the last 5 years a lot good guitars have been coming out of China. I've played some hollow bodies with real wood and the feel and balance and tone really has quality. How do you guys feel about imports from China these days? Are there many stores in the US that sell them? Here, they are very easy to find in the bigger cities.

[RoyaleT]

If you're satisfied with the quality level and most importantly the playability and sound from a Chinese guitar, it's the perfect one for you. I have American(Guild folk ), Korean(Aria FA71), Japanese(Yairi dread) , Chinese,(Epi dot) and Canadian(Godin Kingpin ll). Eastmans are great for the $$ in all areas. My Dot was nicely built and finished, but needed some electronic upgrades to be a very nice guitar.

[mr. beaumont]

I too have guitars built in the usa, canada, germany, mexico, china and japan... I buy the best quality guitar I can afford that gives me the sound, look, and features I need.

I'm not really interested in turning my music into a political statement...life is better when other's don't either.

[mississippi]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I too have guitars built in the usa, canada, germany, mexico, china and japan... I buy the best quality guitar I can afford that gives me the sound, look, and features I need.

I'm not really interested in turning my music into a political statement...life is better when other's don't either.

I wasn't thinking of it as political, but quality. I know China products has been bashed a lot. I guess I should have said "outside America " made guitars. Surely I didn't want to get you hot on this issue. Sorry.

[mr. beaumont]

No, I'm sorry, I didn't think of your post as political...but I do think the reason some folks won't buy chinese guitars is.

Currently, china still makes some of the worst guitars out there...but they also make eastmans and gitanes...the quality is there, without a doubt. It's no longer just about offering a cheap lower quality alternative product.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by mississippi

Recently within the last 5 years a lot good guitars have been coming out of China. I've played some hollow bodies with real wood and the feel and balance and tone really has quality. How do you guys feel about imports from China these days? Are there many stores in the US that sell them? Here, they are very easy to find in the bigger cities.

Quality. There are the cheap crappy ones and there are nice ones that are good values (Eastman, for example, or the Classic Vibe Teles). If someone just says Chinese guitars are all shoddy, they're not paying attention.

Easy to find. Yup. There's certainly no trade blockade.

Politics. When the MIC Fender Modern Player line was announced, the reaction on the Tele forum (TDPRI) was predictable. Hair was rent; teeth were gnashed; sackcloth and ash were donned. But it's your money, you get to spend it as you see fit. I know I'm saving up for a Larrivée, partly because it's a Canadian company.

[TruthHertz]

China has amazing workmanship within the country. I've seen Hasselblad knock offs, violins of concert quality, guitars that stand with the some of the best handbuilts as professional tools. China has the chops, no doubt. But they're not in it for the prestige, what we see over here is what China does the best: make a skillful product with a low wage workforce and sell it cheap to an big name boss. If those bosses wanted the top level guitar, China would make it but it means a smaller profit margin. Chinese hand workmanship is as good as it is paid to be. American companies WANT them to cut corners, it means less cost, more profit.
When I worked at Ibanez, they'd search out and farm factories in China. They would work with Chinese factories to raise their standards and they would, to a shocking degree. When it reached the point where the factory would need to raise their prices for the additional labor required, Ibanez would terminate their arrangement and start with a cheaper (shabbier) factory, build them up, raise their standards... you get the idea.
If you find a boss that says "make the best" they will. Eastman comes close. They still skimp on electronics and some details but all in all, an amazing niche in the market.
David

[Dark Star]

I'm not concerned w/the "politics" as much as the human rights aspect. I don't care if it is the same build quality as a D'Angelico. I can't enjoy a guitar that has been produced under the repressive & downright violent conditions that are present in China right now.

[mr. beaumont]

See, but that's a blanket statement.

I'm guessing the Cort factory and Eastman strings are different atmospheres.

[fep]

rut roh

[stevedenver]

well the chinese are not champions of human rights either, and a far sight worse, IMHO
and, im no fan of US actions as of recently, including gauntanemo and other matters, but this isnt the point

and as i guy who worked for some years for and with chinese companies, there is a culture of not giving as much as what was contracted for-and thats a very restrained way of describing it-having worked as a lawyer and doing business-the chinese do not have, nor wish to honor, the western concept of contract or promises-culturally they are very proud of this approach-i think of them as the Ferenghi of the East (star trek fans!) when it comes to business-there are more pejorative comparisons by far, which i will not use

-in order to raise profits, on the chinese side, far more than on the US side, in my experience, lesser quality materails and anything else will be substituted if they can get away with it-its a tool of negotiation, get commitment, have the party rely upon it, and then change the terms- i know this first hand from furniture imports issues
and unlike the US, the government controls companies doing business with China via labor contracts and commitments, as well as banking and taxes-once your in you are at thier mercy-you have to be wiling to walk away and lose everything-and thats the difference between chines products and US products-the politcal aspect IMHO is far more direct-no one at GIbson is forced to work there-and they do have the right to bargain for terms of employment-this is not the case in China

im afraid that i do have a bias against chinese products for a variety of reasons, and thats my POV and no one elses-

all things being equal, im certain that chinese insturments are/can be wonderful
and all things being equal, in terms of world trade and my predjudices, academically, i have nothing against chinese or any other product

i have yet to handle/play one personally, that i think rivals high end european or US instruments

if i have any vision into the future, they will follow the example of japan regarding excellent quality, and will bury the US unless we too modernize our manufacturing and keep it as contemporary as thiers

the good news is, sorta, the prices will eventually equalize-the bad news is that it will affect us makers
the best news is that at least for a genreation, being the conservative traditional types that guitarists are, most will still seek and covet US brand name guitars
i think it may be a while before we see oringal Chinese rock or other music that has a similar cultural impact as does US music

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by fep

rut roh

Love it! Thanks for the smile. Sometimes I feel like Myth Busters, shooting a cannon through the neighborhood for comic relief. Love the pan through the audience's faces...
David

YouTube Video

[WhoisLevang]

I've now had two decent guitars made in China; One, an Affinity Strat, the other is a 330 copy which I still have-

Monty Python- I Like Chinese (1980) - YouTube

[Dark Star]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Exactly the point! I'm glad you said that. I won't buy from American builders because of the blatant human rights violations that the American government has been and still is responsible for in Guantanamo, Bagram in Afghanistan and the detention camps along the Mexican border. It's the reason I won't buy a Gibson.
David

Right. The similarities between the two countries... it's just uncanny. Kind of like that Lincoln/Kennedy thing.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Dark Star

Right. The similarities between the two countries... it's just uncanny.

Funny you should mention that Dark Star! I was in Chinatown the other day, having some hot and sour soup and I was thinking the SAME thing! Are you a mind reader or do our great minds just think alike?
And when you mentioned Lincoln and Kennedy, both presidents if I'm not mistaken, right? Yeah I get your point.
The world is so full of things that are alike. Oh, here's another one: a Honda Civic and a Wildebeast- both are things that move and have 4 points that touch the ground. Ha!
Your turn! (I LOVE this game!)
David

Here's a real mind bender:

YouTube Video

[WhoisLevang]

Without adding too much fuel to this slightly "flaming" interchange- For a bunch of "communists" or "socialists", the Chinese seem very involved in capitalism! - (and actually pretty good at it)
Guitar-Guitar Manufacturers, Suppliers and Exporters on Alibaba.com

[mr. beaumont]

The problem is once you draw a line in the sand, you either suck it up or forever catch yourself being made into a hypocrite.

I mean, you all know what's going on in mexico right now right? And how crooked the government is? But I'm not going to stop buying poblano peppers from the local market that has them fresh from mexico every week. What if I started ridding my life of all products with ties to countries whose politics I don't like?

Better to research what you can about a company and let that be your guide. Now some of the stuff about what happened at Cort has been publicized...somebody would say "that's horrible, I'm not buying their instruments" and i'd agree with them. But that's based on what we've heard...if evidence pops up of inhumane conditions at the Eastman factory, i'd feel the same way...but something tells me there's not a color we can paint it all the same with.

And so lies the treacherous path these "guitar made where?" Threads. The only thing I do know about them is they rarely end well, and nobody's mind is ever changed.

[WhoisLevang]

Great art and beauty has come out of China from time immemorable.
Jeff said: "What if I started ridding my life of all products with ties to countries whose politics I don't like?"
In my case,since I'm a bit of an anarchist, I probably couldn't purchase ANYTHING! LOL!
Here is something else from China which I really like;
The Old 12 Girls Band ?????? Shining Energy in HD - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=elduIwhlDVA

[jazzbow]

Hey, I remember when we all looked down on Japanese instruments back in the day, but now I see everyone rating them and ebay prices for these going up in value (my Yamaha PBass knock off has doubled in price in the last year!).
Chinese products do vary in quality but you pays your money youse takes your choice.

[Dark Star]

TruthHertz- I don't know if you are serious, or just being sarcastic. Just the other day I was considering buying a wildebeast as a commuter.
Seriously, I don't have a problem w/Chinese people building guitars. It's just that I think that their oppressive regime is more oppressive than our oppressive regime, if you want to look at it that way. Here in the U.S. we were allowed by our government to have more than one child, for instance. I like that, but I'm not asking anyone else to feel the same way I do.

[WhoisLevang]

Boots Bot?!?!? LMAO! It's like Yoda got drunk and had to sell boots to support his speech therapy lessons... ;-)

[mr. beaumont]

Actually, made in china AND heavily counterfeited there.

Uggs are not cheap...any cheap ones are either hot or as phony as a three dollar bill...

[cjm]

A cliche, but true: China is a country in transition.

If what we in the West want for the Chinese people is more freedom, more protection of human rights, more opportunities for the lowest economic classes, then the way to achieve that is not by boycotting Chinese production -- as if that could be done in any meaningful way in today's world economy anyway.

Chinese society and the Chinese government are moving gradually toward -- not away from -- a much less repressive social order. They have a long ways to go -- but so do we in the West even if we're somewhat ahead of China.

If the West wants China to embrace more contemporary western values (contemporary, because the west has had more than its share of totalitarian, repressive regimes in the not-so-distant past), then engagement at many different levels -- including (but not limited to) trade, tourism, immigration -- is key.

So when it comes to guitars...I judge the guitar on its merits and/or potential as a musical instrument and not by whether it was built in the PRC.

I might feel differently if China was doggedly maintaining or even retreating into more hard line totalitarianism, but that's not what is happening today.

As a result, one of the guitars and one of the electric basses I own were built in China, and I'm not the least bit concerned about that.

[RoyaleT]

I think, IMHO, we would serve the original poster better by stating how we feel about the quality issue he asked about, and left the political/economic for other venues. Quality of build, woods, and other materials, tone, and electronics should be what we're about. Love and appreciation of the instrument and music is what I look for here, if I want to get annoyed, I'll log off and watch the news.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by RoyaleT

I think, IMHO, we would serve the original poster better by stating how we feel about the quality issue he asked about, and left the political/economic for other venues. Quality of build, woods, and other materials, tone, and electronics should be what we're about. Love and appreciation of the instrument and music is what I look for here, if I want to get annoyed, I'll log off and watch the news.

Quite right, and apologies for the post I just made without really thinking about the implications.

It is almost impossible to make a general statement about the overall quality of Chinese built guitars other than to say that quality ranges from execrable to quite good -- but that is true of just about any country's production if there is an indigenous mass production guitar industry found there.

If there is one fairly consistent shortcoming I have observed with Chinese built guitars, it is that the electronics are usually not so great. That seems to be where almost all Chinese manufacturers cut costs without regard to their selection of wood, or the quality of workmanship.

From my perspective, that's an opportunity for me, as a guitar player -- because after strings, the electronics are about the easiest thing to upgrade. Many Chinese guitars are good platforms for after market upgrades and the end result can be a fully gig worthy axe at a cost savings of 50% or more relative to some of the more well known non Chinese brands that usually don't require upgrades to achieve something nearer their full potential.

[vinlander]

Sound quality and workmanship is far more important to me than anything else. I am happy my Epiphone Sheraton is a 2004 5 pieces neck Korean and not an early chinese production with a scarf joint one.
That has nothing to do with being chinese.
Yes asia is notorious for mass production using the cheapest parts, but Amercian brands can also notorious for asking overrated price for something to make it exclusive or special...think about binding on a gibson for instance...

[BenThayer]

I agree with the posts regarding quality. It's certainly available abroad. I am relatively new to jazz guitar and thought I'd get an Eastman for the bang-for-the-buck. But the more I thought about it the more I remembered what the CEO of Playmobil, a German toy maker said when interviewed about potentially moving their production to China. In short, he said that if the factory were moved overseas, none of his workers could afford their product, which would not go down in price. I believe one should be able to spend their own money as they see fit. But in my case, all of my careers have involved goods or services for local consumers. If I want to continue to have that customer base, I have to buy locally to the extent possible. And another guitar is definitely a "want", not a "need".

That said, I'm going to go ahead and make an introductory thread, then cruise posts a/b'ing the pros and cons of small-shop luthier vs. pre-owned Gibson.

Thanks for this forum.

Rob

[TruthHertz]

You know during the 40's, bebop was in its genesis and Louis Armstrong was still a contemporary. Asked what he thought of the new music, he said "Bebop is Chinese Music."
Cab Calloway also shares this attribute.
If you're going to play bebop, shouldn't you have a Chinese guitar?
David

[stevedenver]

Originally Posted by RoyaleT

I think, IMHO, we would serve the original poster better by stating how we feel about the quality issue he asked about, and left the political/economic for other venues. Quality of build, woods, and other materials, tone, and electronics should be what we're about. Love and appreciation of the instrument and music is what I look for here, if I want to get annoyed, I'll log off and watch the news.

actually , as i read the post, it was more broadly stated -"does it matter?"

but i too agree that political stuff will inevitably raise hackles

academically speaking of course it doenst matter where a fine instrument is made

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by mississippi

Recently within the last 5 years a lot good guitars have been coming out of China. I've played some hollow bodies with real wood and the feel and balance and tone really has quality. How do you guys feel about imports from China these days? Are there many stores in the US that sell them? Here, they are very easy to find in the bigger cities.

Chinese, Korean, and Indonesian guitars are very easy to find but not Japanese guitars.

I have not seen any Japanese guitars.