Generally Hello Again

[czardas]

Deleted

[Banksia]

OMG! You didn't get involved in an African v Euro thread did you? or a Classical v Jazz? or, oh noez, not the Mark Levine thread?!?!?!?

Anyway, a general hello to you too.

[Banksia]

Oh, I see you are a Flamenco player. Flamenco is very popular on here. It must be because it has dozens of threads.

[paynow]

Originally Posted by czardas

I joined a couple of days ago and immediately got involved in something I shouldn't have. I suppose things like that can happen. After receiving a very polite PM from another member, I decided to hang around a bit longer. So hello and may I introduce myself.

YouTube - ‪Nick Wilkinson - Alegrias‬‏

Jazz guitar has always interested me, but I never got deeply involved. Who knows what the future holds?

Great playing man. Please do stick around.

[Stackabones]

Welcome, Nick! Love the vid -- stellar!!!

[markerhodes]

Develop a thicker skin, man. Not everyone will agree with you, and some people may think you The Worst Thing Ever, but so be it. Do what you do, have your say, and let others do the same. As Keith Richards put it, "You shouldn't take it so hard!"

[max_power]

Originally Posted by czardas

I will no longer continue to take part in this forum because of attacks made on me by Kevin ksjazzguitar, who has failed to show any courtesy. To those who have given me a warm welcome, I wish to thank you. I request that you to not listen to anything he has to say about me. If you come across me elsewhere on the Internet, please judge me from my own words, and not a misinterpreted representation from the mouths of others.

It saddens me to have to leave in this manner. but there is no sense in taking part in a forum which allows their members to attack any other members on such a scale as this. I tried to walk away from the argument, but Kevin has pursued the argument in every thread in which I have posted, with the exception of this one, so far. An argument which serves no other purpose than to bolster his own ego. Having now acheived his goal, I hope that at some time in the future he will reflect on this and be able to find peace within himself.

You asshole. Don't try to make KS look like the bad guy here. You blatantly lied about your knowledge, claiming to be an authority on classical theory, and proceeded to spew out false information. You were called on it, at which point you continued to argue, and when you were finally backed into a corner you edited your posts to make it seem like you did nothing wrong. That is despicable. You will not be missed.

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by max_power

Don't try to make KS look like the bad guy here.

I'm with Kevin on this one, too.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by max_power

claiming to be an authority on classical theory

There is such a thing as "classical theory?"

[Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D]

Wow. I can't believe how unfriendly you guys are. Let the poor guy breathe!!

[max_power]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

There is such a thing as "classical theory?"

Fine.

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D

Wow. I can't believe how unfriendly you guys are. Let the poor guy breathe!!

I know it seems mean, but honestly, if you were following the threads in which he was posting before he went back and edited the content to make himself look good... you would not be standing up for him.

[Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D]

Oh... didn't know.

[orasnon]

Originally Posted by max_power

You asshole. Don't try to make KS look like the bad guy here. You blatantly lied about your knowledge, claiming to be an authority on classical theory, and proceeded to spew out false information. You were called on it, at which point you continued to argue, and when you were finally backed into a corner you edited your posts to make it seem like you did nothing wrong. That is despicable. You will not be missed.

Max_power, you and KS are the assholes here. Regardless of how czardas ended up engaging in this "debate", it UNNECESSARILY turned heated. Why? Because he was the first one insulted by someone - Kevin Smith - who habitually does this to others, myself included. It wasn't a random, isolated incident, but only one in a long chain of threads that didn't have to end up this way. Think about: how many ppl here end up telling this same guy, KS, to fuck off? And now here's Maxpower, defending the same instigator? MP, what a bitch move...

Incidentally this same thread had other new members who experienced the same heat, and ended up telling KS to chill out. Guess KS makes this place not very inviting...

[ksjazzguitar]

Look, czardas was lying through his teeth and using dihonest tactics to try and hide it. If you look at the progression of the discussion you will see that I didn't start out being insulting. But to me, being lied to is insulting to me. From my perspective, first blood was drawn against me. But people come in on the end of the argument and they see me "picking on" someone. Why is it me? Well I know that I'm not the only one that knew that his definition of a diminished chord was ridiculous. Perhaps I was the only one that cared that misinformation was being presented as fact and an impressionable noob might get the wrong idea. Maybe the rest are just wiser than me and roll their eyes and just ignore the idiot.

I guess I'm different from many of you guys. When someone lies to me, I get offended. When someone pretends to know something they don't and uses that as a lever to tell me that I don't know something that I do know, that offends me. People who think that skimming the first three and a half paragraphs of Wikipedia article makes them an expert will always bug me.

This is a guy that was trying to unilaterally redefine a diminished chord and to tell everyone else that they were wrong. He's still trying to say that D# F A C is a diminished chord. Most of my flame wars have been a variation of this theme, like someone trying to say that inversion and voicing are the same thing or someone trying to make up bizarre terminology to try and make himself seem smarter.

I don't go trolling around for innocent noobs. If you look, there have been plenty of posts where I gently correct a mistake made by someone. Why didn't those turn into flame wars? Because they simple accepted the information and moved on. They didn't hunker down; invent fake education; make up bizarre terminology to confuse the issue; go back and edit or add to or delete information to past posts to deceive; start in with the ad hominem attacks; start in some anti-knowledge or anti-theory rant; denying definitions that can be found in any music dictionary; or any of the other tactics common to these arguments. It's simple. If they don't know something, they shouldn't pretend that they're an expert on the subject. If they make a mistake, they should just sack up and admit it, and not hunker down in denial mode and wrap themselves in the pathetic blanket of victim-hood.

You could help that if you want. When someone says that any chord with a b5 is a diminished chord, regardless of what the 3rd is, you can help me point out that that is wrong. But for some strange reason I am often the only one trying to explain that 2+2 does not equal 3. Since I am the only one, I have to yell. If others joined be, I wouldn't have to, and maybe these people would realize that it is not just some lone crazy guy insisting that 2+2=4.

And I would point out that you are the one screaming profanities. Let's forget all this crap and just have good discussions. I don't think that we need to break up into the Jets and the Sharks.

And really, my hatred is of the misinformation, not the people. When the misinformation goes away, I relax. Hakuna matata, man.

Peace,
Kevin

[orasnon]

I'm with czardas, i'm outta here. Before here, I've been a forum member at All About Jazz, which has some well-known pros as regular members. None of this BS happens on there - debates yes, pedantic ego-driven posts, no. Might I recommend this place to czardas as it is will be much more inviting to you as a new member...

[Banksia]

Well, I'm not leaving, if that's any consolation to anyone.

Here's what I know: When Czardas introduced himself he claimed to be Nick Wilkinson, flamenco guitarist. Wilkinson did study in Rotterdam for years and also studied with Paco Pena. I sent Wilkinson an email and asked him if he was posting on here as "Czardas." I haven't had a reply. Possibly Wilkinson doesn't check his email but Czardas has been online every day for the last week.

I'm with Kevin on this BUT, I refuse to join a gang or get any tattoos!

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by orasnon

I'm with czardas, i'm outta here. Before here, I've been a forum member at All About Jazz, which has some well-known pros as regular members. None of this BS happens on there - debates yes, pedantic ego-driven posts, no. Might I recommend this place to czardas as it is will be much more inviting to you as a new member...

what you must be a newbie at AAJ-don't remember the "Blues" thread there? Or the Maj7#5 thread? Heh-heh. Or the George Russell thread?

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by orasnon

...Might I recommend this place [AAJ] to czardas as it is will be much more inviting to you as a new member...

And how will they handle it when he starts making up definitions and telling anyone who tries to correct him, no matter how politely, that he is mistaken, and he hunkers down deciding to defend to the death his ridiculous ideas? How will your "well-known pros" react as he tries to lecture them on a subject on which he doesn't even know the fundamentals? When he starts lying and "creatively" editing posts? Please come back and let us know.

Or we could all calm down and realize that I'm a bit of a pompous jerk who gets off on picking on lying trolls like czardas. That makes me a bit of a jerk, but czardas had it coming by any rational measure.

Originally Posted by Banksia

...Here's what I know: When Czardas introduced himself he claimed to be Nick Wilkinson, flamenco guitarist....

Wow! I missed the thing about the identity theft. Nice catch. Now I really hate him - it takes the deception to a whole new level (assuming that this is true.) It's one thing to be an idiot, but to smear another guitar player in the process, that's low.

Hmmm. We have dueling web pages. One that appears to be a genuine Wilkinson page:

http://123flamenco.com/home.html

And another that is more suspect:

http://www.czardas.co [dot] uk/

(Just replace the "[dot]" with a "." - I didn't want to give a potential bogus site a backtrack.)

It clearly claims to be the same person but it is mainly talking about computer programming. I guess it's possible that he's a Renaissance man. But I'm still suspicious - anyone who has studied at a conservatory should know how to build a diminished chord.

[addendum: Originally the previous paragraph said "Although it clearly claims to be the same person, notice that there is no link to the other site (which would alert the other person) and it is mainly talking about computer programming. Hmmm. Kinda fishy." It was quoted while I was correcting it after I realized that there was a link.]

The two sites have very different feels.

Originally Posted by Banksia

I'm with Kevin on this BUT, I refuse to join a gang or get any tattoos!

At least we could get matching shirts, just like Pinkie Tuscadero and the Pinkettes!

Peace,
Kevin

[Banksia]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Wow! I missed the thing about the identity theft. Nice catch. Now I really hate him - it takes the deception to a whole new level. It's one thing to be an idiot, but to smear another guitar player in the process, that's low.

Hmmm. We have dueling web pages. One that appears to be a genuine Wilkinson page:

123flamenco.com Home Page

And another that is more suspect:

http://www.czardas.co [dot] uk/

(Just replace the "[dot]" with a "." - I didn't want to give a potential bogus site a backtrack.)

Although it clearly claims to be the same person, notice that there is no link to the other site (which would alert the other person) and it is mainly talking about computer programming. Hmmm. Kinda fishy.

Peace,
Kevin

I sent the email to the 123flamenco site. Now, given that it appears to be Wilkinsons breadwinner, it seems odd that he hasn't checked his email. And why wouldn't he reply? It's not flamenco draws such huge crowds that the players can afford to blow off potential fans, Also, there are no Czardas posts on any of our (endless) flamenco threads.

I could believe that a pro flamenco player may not know any theory but I can't believe that a graduate of any Euro Music School wouldn't know theory.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Banksia

I could believe that a pro flamenco player may not know any theory but I can't believe that a graduate of any Euro Music School wouldn't know theory.

Yeah, I've known some amazing flamenco players who were very weak on theory. That's fine - it's just not a theory intensive music. (No, that's not an insult.)


I don't know what conservatories are like in Europe. Maybe it means something different over there, but in the States, conservatories tend to be very respected and very advanced. Looking at the web page:

codarts - rotterdams conservatorium

I see that they do have a "world music academy." I could maybe see an American conservatory having a world music degree (more likely just a minor - more likely than that, a few classes.) But I also notice that it has a "pop music academy." Hmmmmm. This is sound more and more like the music equivalent of ITT Tech. I didn't see a "pop music academy" on Julliard's web page, for example.

I don't know the school very well, but I find their web site to be rather vague. Also, this is clearly not some ancient institution of Rotterdam - the instruction is in English. (This seems odd to me, considering that czardas had both claimed that English was a native language and that he'd had trouble in the conservatory at first because he didn't speak much Dutch.) It also only claims to have been founded in 1930 (although it's not clear, it just claims to have "a history reaching back to 1930" - which could be some guy in his basement teaching piano lessons.) And most "prestigious conservatories," when you Google them, they show up with many, many backlinks. This is pretty on it's own.

A quick look at the course list for his degree (see page 37):

http://www.codarts.nl/01_home_en/02_...2010-2011i.pdf

It shows a shocking lack of music theory, offering instead "Flamenco Theory." There's something called "harmony a/t guitar" (I would be suspicious of a harmony class that felt the need to base it around the guitar) and I hope that I'm misunderstanding "western MTV and solfege." (Sight-singing to Micheal Jackson videos? ) It seems that they have a lot of "voice/dance" but no general theory. They even have a classes in "studio productions," but not general theory. Looking at the "pop music academy" (pp.23-25) it seems that they get much more music theory than the flamenco guys. (Personally, if I were a flamenco guy, I'd be offended by that.)

Based on what I'm seeing, maybe it is possible to get through that program and not learn basic chord construction. But that would mean that the word "conservatory" means something very different over there. There is no way you could graduate from even a community college music program over here and not understand how to build your triads (let alone much more complicated things.) And this is claimed to be a "prestigious European conservatory" awarding a BM. (Since czardas claimed to study there for six years, perhaps he was getting the MM.) But all this just means that this is some rinky-dink for-profit school that put the word "conservatory" in the title to make itself seem more "prestigious." At least that is what it is seeming like, the more I look at it.

It may be a half decent little academy, but it doesn't appear to be anything close to what we call "conservatory." It seems more like a trade school for musicians.

(Of course all of this would make him even less qualified to come on here and start lecturing us about theory.)

Peace,
Kevin

[orasnon]

KS Its not about simply about your conflict with czardas, but with everyone else you antagonize, not just that thread, but so many others...

BTW dear readers, look at the thread in question and notice how many ppl told KS he was being , rude - not just czardas, but quite a few others, including newbies. Regardless of whether czardas is a phony or not, that doesn't exculpate KS from being a jerk who has delusions of grandeur of being some kind of renaissance man (well, lets take one of "the offended" - OneWorld's -music posted in that thread and juxtapose it with "the offender" KS' - wow what a stark difference LOL - sound without substance)

Good luck KS, and looking forward to your publications you talk about, as well as your CD release.

[Banksia]

Well I just got a reply to my email from "nick@123flamenco.com" and he says he is Czardas.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by czardas

The argument with Kevin is superfluous.

So stop.

[oneworld]

Originally Posted by czardas

It might help if he was to stay away from me.

just ignore it...

the rotterdam conservatory and their respective departments are
great and well respected... bob brookmeyer was head of the 'jazz/improv/contemporary composition' course in the early 90's
and set up a composer's workshop (a la BMI) in r'dam until he retired.
currently our lead trumpet player is a teacher there and we just recorded
a cd with dutch singer fay classen (who teaches there as well) with whom we'll be at northsea and bimhuis later this year...
some jazz programs in the us are still the best in the world but when it comes
to western music education it's all happening in europe... unless you have the talent and can afford to attend juilliard or new england.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by oneworld

just ignore it...

Right. Use the ignore feature.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by orasnon

Before here, I've been a forum member at All About Jazz, which has some well-known pros as regular members. None of this BS happens on there - ...

I read that site and have done so for some time. There havve been many knock down dragouts over there, though not so much as of late. No different than here. I recall that a few people stopped posting there as a result of some issues.

I think this type of a thing is an inherent problem with any forum. Never mind a music forum, I mean have you ever read the comment's section on a news site? It's enough to make you wonder how we're all not killing each other in the streets. It seems discourse has been replaced with insults. Not good.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by orasnon

...BTW dear readers, look at the thread in question and notice how many ppl told KS he was being , rude - not just czardas,...

But that takes out the context. It takes out czaradas' lies and deception about his knowledge and his intractable and militant defense of false statements. I would show you, but oh yeah, he edited and then deleted them.

Yes, I was rude. I am rude to liars and deceivers. You guys look at a fraction of the posts in which I participate and infer my demeanor from that. There are plenty of threads where I offer simple advice to noobs, and even have friendly disagreements. Why don't those disagreements get rude? Because those people don't lie, deceive, and belligerently defend ridiculous ideas that are demonstrably false in the simplest check of a music dictionary. (That describes pretty much all of my flame wars.)

Originally Posted by czardas

The first link in the border on the home page of czardas.co.uk links to my flamenco website.

Perhaps you misunderstand what "addendum" means.

Originally Posted by czardas

It's one thing to be called names, but it's something else to be accused of being a liar and know nothing about one's own subject.

But that is demonstrably true. If you opened up a music dictionary and looked up "diminished chord" you would see that you don't know what it is. And if you don't know what a diminished chord is, doesn't that call everything else into question?

Originally Posted by czardas

The argument with Kevin is superfluous. There is no need to discuss the construction of basic triads becuase it would be an insult and pointless to suggest they have a different construction.

But you are the one who is trying to change the definition. So by your own words you behaved insultingly! All you had to have done, when confronted with the facts, would have been to admit your mistake and stop lecturing on a subject that you don't have basic knowledge.

Originally Posted by czardas

It might help if he was to stay away from me.

Then stop lying and spreading misinformation.

Originally Posted by oneworld

the rotterdam conservatory and their respective departments are great and well respected...

And yet you can get a BM there without studying music theory? Sorry, I guess we have much more rigorous standards for what we call "Bachelor of Music." Having a few celebrity instructors at your music school doesn't change the fact that you aren't teaching basic theory. (I've seen a lot of little programs with celeb teachers, especially in jazz.) The BA I did required 3 years of theory, so I would expect a BM to have at least that much, if not more. And he seems to be claiming an MM, so I would expect at least another year.

So, I guess I made two big mistakes.

1. I assumed that a college educated flamenco player (or any music major) would have learned basic theory. But apparently flamenco players don't feel the need to understand basic chord construction. Again, a simple look at the RC course catalog shows that the pop music degree has much higher theory requirements. Additionally, people like the flamenco students don't even take any general theory with the rest of the kids, begin segregated in "flamenco theory." Sadly, this seems accepted to assume that flamenco players don't need and/or can't handle a class in basic chord construction. Again, if I were a flamenco player, I would find this highly offensive. Apparently, they don't think that you guys can handle it or have a need to know basic chord and scale construction. I can understand the need for a class in the specifics of flamenco theory, but to not get the basics? That's just sad.
2. I assumed an undue level of respect for European institutions. First of all, in the US, the word "conservatory" is reserved for only the best, most prestigious music schools, with the highest standards for acceptance and graduation. Additionally, the BM is the most respected 4-year degree that you can get. But it appears that we require more theory in our first year at a community college than a European conservatory does for the six years of an MM.

Czardas, I guess I accept that you are who you say you are. But unfortunately that requires me to lower my opinion of what an "educated" flamenco player is and forces me to forever be suspicious of European credentials.

Czardas, if you want me off your back, then just learn your basic theory before trying to pontificate on advanced theory - that is an insult to everyone on this forum. By your own admission, you don't know classical or jazz theory and yet you came onto a jazz forum and tried to tell us we were notating chords wrong and tried to redefine what a diminished chord is (something that anyone with half of a class in "real" music theory can spot as ridiculous.)

You just don't know what you're talking about and refuse to admit that and keep pontificating your nonsense. That's what makes you my white whale. Misinformation is the enemy and you are handing it out like candy.

Peace,
Kevin

[NSJ]

have not followed the other thread, but if true, if someone was BSing on theory and then deleted/removed posts to cover up their tracks, they deserved to be called and rightly criticized on that. Absolutely. That is dishonest behavior.

And, unfortunately, flamenco guitarists tend to get a "guilty til proven innocent" around here, given the amount of spam generated (I personally don't mind, I let them, err, him, do it and pay no attention to it).


You are also talking about a discipline that generally is predicated on the oral tradition (i.e., musical illiteracy) and where Music Theory begins and ends with the magic words, "por medio" and "por arriba". Real scientific stuff there.

[NSJ]

I have not followed that other thread, but if true, if someone is BSing about theory, and then lying/deleting their posts, they deserve to be called out and criticized. That is plain dishonest!

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by NSJ

And, unfortunately, flamenco guitarists tend to get a "guilty til proven innocent" around here,

Doesn't say much for the peanut gallery.