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Does anyone here outsource your finishing? Considering doing so with my builds. The finish process is pretty stressful for me, and when all is said and done, to me anyway, the finish though consistent doesn't shine like glass, as I think it should for a new guitar. Not to mention the number of sand thru's I get and other headaches.
So, if you use a company, who do you use? Who have you had a bad service from? And lastly, when shipping your new build to the finishing company, how do you secure your road case, assuming you use one, so that the guitar is still inside when it arrives home?
Any and all advice is welcome, and thank you.
Tom Lyons
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09-04-2017 07:47 PM
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Bill Hollenbeck always told me that I make my own guitar and there are 3 things I do not make on the guitar. I buy the strings, the machine heads, and a case. otherwise if I make the guitar I did the entire guitar. No outsourcing that maybe fine but just not on my personal radar screen.
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Where are you located?
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I have heard good things about Brian Howard but I don't know any details about his service.Welcome to Brian Howard Guitars
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Depending on the type of guitar, your actual labour and set up, finishing can take from 1/3 to 2/3 of the man hours on a guitar. Nitro can also kill your brain cells if you're not set up for uber ventilation, not to mention the zoning issues concerning commercial spraying.
Originally Posted by deacon Mark
When I worked at Ibanez, there was a poly spray room. The sprayers were very specialized and donned space suit like equipment. They told stories of people who accidentally inhaled the quick set up finish. It coated their lungs and suffocated them.
In nitro, just the level and rub out can be an art in itself, and time consuming.
I certainly understand builders who don't want to do this themselves. Operations I've seen that have made the step up to greater quantity have gotten a dedicated in house finisher as an early step to efficiency.
For all the reasons above, I do applaud those builders who can do it all themselves (I actually used a brush on finish and relish the process but it's why I don't build enough to ever live on) but outsourcing makes sense.
One of those things I am aware of when people ask "Why are Chinese guitars so much less expensive than American built guitars?". I've seen a Chinese pro finisher apply a violin varnish by brush to the back of a violin IN ONE BRUSHSTROKE and it looked perfect.
Who here has the time to get that good?
David
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You could check out Jack Pidgeon in central NY Jack's Guitar Finishes - Baldwinsville, New York - Arts & Entertainment | Facebook
PK
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Brian is ill, apparently, and is taking a hiatus from finish work. However, I also have heard good things. Probably from the same source. Originally Posted by Matt Cushman
That said, if you include shipping, you are talking about adding nearly $1,000 to the cost of your build. I don't outsource the finish because I don't command high enough prices to justify it. Also, I enjoy French Polish.
OTOH if I could outsource putting on the binding, I don't care what that would cost!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Tom, what kind of finish do you want?
There are a few excellent painters around, doing poly, nitro, French polish (shellac).
Let's make a list!
-Brian Howard - Welcome to Brian Howard Guitars
-Jack Pidgeon - Jack's Guitar Finishes - Baldwinsville, New York - Arts & Entertainment | Facebook
-Pat Wilkins - Van Nuys, CA - Pat Wilkins Guitars and Finishing
-Shazrock Paint - Kenosha WI (ex-Washburn Custom Shop) - WELCOME TO SHAZROCK CUSTOM PAINT & GUITARS!!!!!!!!!!!Last edited by Hammertone; 09-06-2017 at 04:18 PM.
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Thanks for your replies. Here's a little more info:
I've shot nitro, in my garage when I lived in San Diego. My wife thought I was going to blow the house up from the fumes and the water heater in the same space. I didn't argue with that, but in my defense, I did turn off the water heater during the process ;-)
I've also shot Target 6000 series water based finish and KTM-9. I prefer the look of the KTM-9 over the Target, but now the company is going to cease production of it.
I've built a room inside my shop here in Florida with the intent of pulling filtered air thru the room and venting back into the shop so as not to lose my AC to the outside. For preventative health measures, I don't want to shoot nitro. I could easily vent the fan outside and put the fumes outside, but the guitars will off-gas while they are curing so the smell will linger in the shop for a long time.
I've swapped email since my original post with Southbound Customs in Nashville and Starr Guitars in Winter Park, FL. Starr is close to 3 hours south of me. Both companies pricing is comparable. With Starr, I can drop off and pick up and avoid the shipping hassles. However, since I work a day job and they aren't open on weekends, this means I'll need to take time off in order to get down there before they close. Unfortunately, both places are at 8 weeks turn-around time.
The KTM-9 polishes out nicely. Very clear. I've received no negative feedback regarding the finish on both electrics and acoustics that I've used it on. And it repairs much nicer than the Target. I recently had an acoustic back in the shop for some maintenance and before I sent it home, I ran it across the buffing wheel and it shined up even better than what I remember it originally leaving. So, that's a positive.
I agree with if I build a guitar, I build the whole thing philosophy. It does make sense to me though, that if I can find a reliable, quality finisher to take over that part of the process for me, I can get started on the next string of builds just that much sooner. Time management as a part time builder is a huge hurdle.
I'll check out the suggested sites as I continue my research. I appreciate the discussion, thank you.
Tom
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yes i'd also suggest you take a look into alt finishing methods...
the classic french polish is still a very viable non toxic hand rubbed possibility
just this weekend was looking at 18th century guarnieri violin museum piece!!! ...
otherwise talk to curt...a finish specialist!! on east coast
About Old School Guitar Repair, Restoration & Lutherie
Old School Guitar Repair, Restoration & Lutherie
cheers
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I have had good luck with Target EM 2000X hybrid varnish over shellac. This is varnish brushed on over padded on shellac. The varnish is sanded then buffed. About 15 coats total.
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Again, not sure what kind of finish you are doing. Wild skulls and flames on a ChromaFlair solid body guitar? Or the other extreme being absolutely clear high gloss to show off that radical figured wood on a delicate OM?
If the former, I think you can take your guitar to a car paint specialist and relatively economically get some amazing results. I have no experience with that, so I'm just passing on what some fellow luthiers have told me. Automotive guys have UV cure finishes that can be cured and buffed out on the same day they spray. You can have a guitar done and back to you in a couple of days.
If the latter, I have to say that after fifteen years of building guitars I have given up completely on spraying a finish. I now consider spraying a finish a last resort kind of thing for very advanced builders. Rather, I've become a HUGE fan of French Polish. It is not that hard to do, creates the most beautiful high gloss finish that really pops figure, requires no specialized gun or compressor, is totally non-toxic, and can be successfully done on your kitchen table.
It is a skill, however. You can't just read the bottle for application instructions. I have gone through several books/YouTube/online things to get my chops up. So far the best course is the Tom Bills course at Luthier's Edge. He has it structured as a subscription for $30 a month that you can cancel any time. The French Polish course was so good I wanted to support him with a continued subscription. But there just isn't much more useful content to keep you subscribed. For $30, however, his course was more than worth it. I watched it through once, and then again while working along with him on a guitar. That guitar was one of the best finishes I've ever done --of any kind. The deepest, richest, most flawless high gloss I've had. I only build a few guitars a year, so I haven't had a chance to do more (I've done other French Polish, only one following Tom Bills method). However, I have two commissions and a third spec build planned. I intend to French Polish all of them.
Lots of people seem to instinctively reject French Polish as too much work. I can tell you that it was no more work for me than to poorly spray a guitar, sand through, fix runs, sand out orange peel, level sand, buff, etc. Maybe that is a testament to how bad I am at spraying, but if you share that experience at all you owe it to yourself to try French Polish.
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Originally Posted by Matt Cushman
Can't argue with those results! I shall use shellac under water base for the finish on my next project.
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My honest apologies for neglecting my finish plan.... I prefer a straight clear coat and let the woods speak for themselves. I have done colors in the past, and even a few bursts, but for the immediate need, I have a bass guitar with an alder body and maple/wenge neck thru that requires only a clear finish. Originally Posted by rlrhett
I've had an interest in french polishing, but I'm told by players that it damages too easily, so I've avoided, for the time being anyway, french polishing. I have bought a DVD on how to do it, but haven't watched it yet. I'll take your advice on the Tom Bills video, thank you.
Again, I truly appreciate all of the discussion and input from everyone.
Thank you,
Tom
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This is the bass that needs to be finished.
Tom
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I look at this from a guitar buyer's perspective. I am looking for a guitar made by a particular person who knows what they are doing. So my sense is that if your find someone to do the finishing and you cannot, or find it a PIA, this is not legit. If I take the time to look into a spec guitar then I really want all the specs to be done by the builder. Sure it is not all easy and has financial drawbacks but can you actually make the guitar and finish it yourself.
Let me give you another weird example. I am a very good bicycle mechanic and never need to take my bike to a shop for any work. I know more than the mechanics at most shops but I also not the greatest for sure. I know bike mechanics hired by real bicycle shops who cannot build a bike wheel. They will take a wheel to the head expert mechanic to see what needs to be done to fix the wheel or get a new one. It is the expert mechanic that knows. Also they could build you a custom wheel (the experts.) If I am buying a guitar from someone who says they make an produces guitars I expect they can do all the work or I might as well buy a factory guitar.
I think no matter what if I am looking at a custom guitar then that person or factory needs to being doing all the work period. I can either build and make guitars all the way to the finish product, or I cannot and this leaves me with the only option to be able to do it all for credibility.Last edited by deacon Mark; 09-07-2017 at 08:26 PM.
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Hey, they don't call him the Deacon for nothing.
Rlrhett, have you by chance checked out Robbie O'Brien's FP course? And if so, how do the two compare? Originally Posted by rlrhett
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I meant nothing bad to the original poster of thread just thoughts. I believe maybe the OP was trying to figure a better way and I have no problem with that. It just seems to become a guitar that was contracted out and buying from a person is very different. The great guitars from builders means you are buying some of their soul.
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Nice looking Bass I like the block inlay. Put a nice acrylic laquer finish on it make a spray booth do it in garage or basement. Even could do it outside. Get a respirator if you can put basses like that together the finishing well not be any harder. Originally Posted by Tom_L
This is the bass that needs to be finished.
Tom
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Oil varnish it.
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There will most certainly be division of labour at Gibson and Heritage. The coveted James Hutchins archtop for example won't have been made from start to finish by the person who gets to sign the instrument at the end. Even the 45th anniversary Benedetto wasn't sprayed by the man himself. I wonder how much was actually carved by Benedetto, but even the official blurb says it was finished by someone else. What is important is the quality of the product, the process like any other provenance can become fiction or folklore very easily and I can't see why it adds to the instument's intrinsic value at all. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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From a player's perspective, I don't find anything 'inauthentic' about outsourcing finishing. I've been playing and endorsing Marchione guitars for more than 20 years now. When Stephen was building on 20th St in NYC, he outsourced to Jack Pidgeon, now that he has more space in Texas, he can handle things in house. They're all great guitars. Best wishes for your lutherie!
PK
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No offense taken. I welcome all points to this discussion. It gives me additional points of view to consider. I was looking at the outsourcing more from a convenience point. It gets me back to building quicker, and less stress involved with the finishing process. But, as you stated, if a person wants a guitar built by X, then that guitar better be built by X. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Tom
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I have built number of guitars, I finished all of them, except my archtop, I thought that guys from car paint shop are more experienced and will not ruin the finish (I dont have much experience with spraying) and they did job excellent. And 2K paint takes less time for curing, which is one of the benefits, I received the guitar on next day and was able to install neck, electronics it on the same day. I dont think the guitar became less "mine" because of that.
Last edited by Raimonds; 09-08-2017 at 01:10 PM.
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Sorry for the delayed reply. I did not buy Robbie's course, but I did get to see some of it when a friend ordered online access. Robbie does not do a traditional FP. He does a lot of level sanding between sessions and relies on buffing for the final results. Tom's course isn't 100% traditional either, but definitely closer. Originally Posted by Jehu
I don't care about authenticity in the approach, but I do think that Tom's course is more satisfying. Also, being more traditional you can compare his steps to other material and feel like you are rounding out your knowledge. Robbie's approach is more unique to him.
Tom is VERY anal about the work. That can be a little irritating, but you really get the sense of how to do it right. You follow Tom faithfully and you WILL get spectacular results. Robbie skips over some of the tediousness. Makes for a more entertaining course, but less accurate as to what the process really is.
I don't think you can go wrong with either one, but I would pick Tom's. You just get a sense that Tom REALLY is into French Polish, whereas for Robbie it is just one of his many tricks.
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