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  1. #1

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    One of the issues that I have heard from a couple of restaurant owners is that BMI and ASCAP payments make it harder for them to justify the cost of hiring performers. The value of live music is difficult to quantify, and having to buy a blanket license under the threat of a lawsuit to cover all their performers cuts into their already thin margin and consequently they haven't been having live music.

    I am assuming this is an issue elsewhere? Larger venues can just pay the fees, but for smaller ones, where the margin is tight, it isn't as easy for them. Any words of wisdom out there?

    Russ

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  3. #2

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    This has been going on for at least twenty years in our area, making gigs much harder to come by. I helped out by retiring. Someone else can have my place at The Wall. There's a size 7 1/2 dent pre-bashed. You're welcome.

  4. #3

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    It's become a problem in the last decade or so technically it was always their, but they have become jerks about it. Also cities needing more sources of revenue are going after small restaurants and clubs to pay for a cabaret license. In past BMI and ASCAP viewed it as a way to promote the music. People would hear songs in clubs and then go buy the records. Well people started stealing music so not enforcing the rules to keep their revenue rolling in. The same thing with retail store who would play the radio or CD's in the store for some atmosphere early on ASCAP and BMI ignored it, now they go after everyone they think they can shake money out of.

    To me was is really BS is when they go after these stores and small clubs they just size up what they think they can pay and charge them that much. So they really aren't tracking what is actually being played and how often so the artists just get a token payment. Just like streaming most the streaming services are leasing the music catalogs do the numbers are pretty boogus.

    So it all started with people stealing music thinking they were getting someone over on the the record companies. Well record companies, tracking companies like BMI and ASCAP, all got mad and made it worse for artists, musicians, and songwriters.

  5. #4

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    I used to play one restaurant where we just played the changes and no melodies. That was fun.

    On the other hand, composers should be compensated. As a composer, I'm all for this.

  6. #5

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    We had a similar thread going a few months ago.

    As I stated then, I run a small club and the fees annually are not that much.

    And yes, composers deserve to get paid.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by RClegg
    One of the issues that I have heard from a couple of restaurant owners is that BMI and ASCAP payments make it harder for them to justify the cost of hiring performers. The value of live music is difficult to quantify, and having to buy a blanket license under the threat of a lawsuit to cover all their performers cuts into their already thin margin and consequently they haven't been having live music.

    I am assuming this is an issue elsewhere? Larger venues can just pay the fees, but for smaller ones, where the margin is tight, it isn't as easy for them. Any words of wisdom out there?

    Russ
    I'm curious about what the annual fees actually are for small-to-mid size venues. The internet for what it's worth says $700-$2000 a year.

  8. #7

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    I am paying just under a grand annually. We seat less than 300 concertgoers.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Yeah. I don't know what the fees are, but they can't be much. Boo!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Playing Devils Advocate...

    Many places have stopped having live music, so less work and opportunities to include original work. Also less retail establishments playing radios and CD, which is a good marketing tool. I know I heard a song in a store and had to find out more about it and eventually buy it. So on one hand someone might not be making a couple cents in royalties, but as musician losing paying gigs and opportunities for your music to be heard by the public in a retail business. The fringe benefits of gigging and people interesting in hiring the group themselves, or looking of a music teacher, making contacts with other musicians who might of fell by the place and heard you.

    I don't think it's a very even trade off.

  10. #9

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    May very well be Doc. I just don't like the concept that keeps coming and keeps coming and keeps coming, of taking advantage of the artist. Part of a business investment is to plan for this. If just under a grand a YEAR is too much money maybe you shouldn't be doing music at all. Others will. If music isn't making money, maybe other ethical solutions need to be looked into.

    I haven't yet given up on any of it. I don't steal music, or download music for free. Why piss in my own bed? But society disagrees with me. Why should I go along with society? Because everyone else does? That's never been me. I see what is right from wrong for me and act, or don't act accordingly.

  11. #10

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    The costs, PRO fees and the musicians pay, vs. the benefits, increased gross profit from having the musicians.

    Increased gross profit from having musicians, after the payroll , the cost of food, rents etc. it would take a lot more incremental patrons to make financial success. Many restaurants/bars operate on small margins, many restaurants fail.

    The PRO fees aren't that high. Perhaps the bigger issue is the lack of interest in live music by the general public.

  12. #11

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    There seems to be this idea that musicians are so desperate (true) that we'll do anything for a gig. Also true. But I'm just not willing to. And I get screwed by all the other musicians who are waiting to take my place. Happens every time. But I'm tired of getting screwed. I'd rather play at home than not get paid. I'd rather not have anyone hear my CDs than give them all away.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    There seems to be this idea that musicians are so desperate (true) that we'll do anything for a gig. Also true. But I'm just not willing to. And I get screwed by all the other musicians who are waiting to take my place. Happens every time. But I'm tired of getting screwed. I'd rather play at home than not get paid. I'd rather not have anyone hear my CDs than give them all away.
    I'd rather play at home than take someones place, someone who is trying to make a living. I've arrived at this changed position over time from thinking about what I've read on this forum.

  14. #13

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    Well, to top it all off, I just heard that you have to pay for a license to drive your darn car if you want to head out onto one of them paved roads!

    I also heard another genius gripe that he could not afford to open a juke joint because the liquor commission was trying to screw him, by forcing him get a liquor license he couldn't afford. It's always someone else's fault when another ignorant businessman fails...

    Them darn musicians....if it were work, why do they call it playing music...?

  15. #14

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    I get that people should be compensated for what they do. I am not sure who benefits, profits or looses when I play "All The Things You Are". I find it curious that the fees are not based on what songs are played, how old they are, who wrote them, how long they are played, or what percentage of live music is original tunes, so it seems the venues are paying just for the right to be able to play anything. It is an odd model.

    However, given the state of the music business licensing agencies need income from where ever they can get it, and the protection of intellectual property is an important bedrock of our way of life. As someone trying to play at the margins of the music business, it is complication that makes getting a gig that much more difficult, but at the end of the day those gigs hardly justify my hobby. Or my meager guitar collection.

    Russ

  16. #15

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    Just so everyone knows, BMI and ASCAP are both not-for-profit organizations.
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 07-05-2017 at 10:58 PM.

  17. #16

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    historical tidbit...

    actual quote via wiki-

    BMI became the first performing rights organization in the United States to represent songwriters of blues, jazz, rhythm and blues, gospel (black genres, performers, and writers that ASCAP did not want to represent)

    cheers

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Just so everyone knows, BMI and ASCAP are both not-for-profit organizations.



    After working for a not for profit I'll just throw out the company not for profit, but the executive staff usually are dancing to the bank. Many not for profits will also have a for profit side with a very fuzzy line dividing the two. The mega churches for example the schools, bookstores, gift shops, book and media sales, concerts, special everts all sorts of side businesses that are for profit, but they want you to think they are part of the not for profit church side.

  19. #18

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    Every time I see one of these threads I think about this cute little cafe a few blocks from my home. The owner opened it with the intent of having live jazz (it seats 40-50 max) and I understand he did for a while until ASCAP shut him down (this all happened before I moved out here 8 years ago). He's a block away from a Starbucks and I'm sure he isn't getting rich -- it's amazing he's still in business at all! I'm sure he watches his costs carefully.

    Periodically I think about asking how much the PRO license would cost and offering to split it with him. If it's $700 and my share would be $350 I'd be willing to do that in exchange for a regular weekly gig there with my trio (upright bass and violin). I don't care about getting paid, I have a good day job, but I've never had a weekly gig. Can't imagine what that would do for my playing.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures folks, and these are desperate times for musicians. So sad.

  20. #19

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    So sad that working musicians can't find a gig because Joe Hobby will do it for free. Musicians who see no value in music....thanks.....start a bakery and give away free bread instead...

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyp145
    Every time I see one of these threads I think about this cute little cafe a few blocks from my home. The owner opened it with the intent of having live jazz (it seats 40-50 max) and I understand he did for a while until ASCAP shut him down (this all happened before I moved out here 8 years ago). He's a block away from a Starbucks and I'm sure he isn't getting rich -- it's amazing he's still in business at all! I'm sure he watches his costs carefully.

    Periodically I think about asking how much the PRO license would cost and offering to split it with him. If it's $700 and my share would be $350 I'd be willing to do that in exchange for a regular weekly gig there with my trio (upright bass and violin). I don't care about getting paid, I have a good day job, but I've never had a weekly gig. Can't imagine what that would do for my playing.

    Desperate times call for desperate measures folks, and these are desperate times for musicians. So sad.
    'Where there's a will, there's a way.'

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    So sad that working musicians can't find a gig because Joe Hobby will do it for free. Musicians who see no value in music....thanks.....start a bakery and give away free bread instead...

    Wonder how Joe Hobby feels when his day job starts bringing in lots of interns for little and sometimes no pay, bet he sees that differently. Or as in my old field computing and jobs disappearing to India. Or company has layoffs and good people lose jobs, then the company bring in H-1B visa people because they are cheap to hire.

    For musicians bars and restaurants and similar gigs are their "day gig", same as whatever office, vehicle or machine Joe Hobby does to pay his bills.

  23. #22

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    Well I don't want to fan any flames, but the world is changing and we have a choice to find our place in the new paradigm or get crushed under the wheels of progress (or, in this case, regress -- believe me, I don't like it either). I actually don't play for free because my violinist is a pro who earns most of her living giving private violin lessons. So I'm always thinking about her whenever I book a gig and she has expressed gratitude to me for that (since my wife is the 3rd member of the trio we usually give her a very generous share of whatever we make, she's young, she needs the cash).

    I do have a suggestion. I've been subscribing to the Ari's Take newsletter for a couple of years and I find it remarkable how he manages to make a living playing original music. He's not a rock star (and may never be), but he seems to have developed a middle class lifestyle as a musician through merch sales at gigs, Patreon so his loyal fans can support him, and other revenue streams he blogs about freely. The kid is a real entrepreneur. Seems like if you do it right, the gig can be like a booth at a farmer's market, an opportunity to sell your wares to the venues customers and build a loyal following of your own.

    I know this is not a popular position. It sucks that it's not enough to be a good musician anymore. Now you have to really hustle to make a buck as a musician. But there are people who are adjusting to the new music business and some of them are even generous enough to share their ideas and philosophy with the rest of us. So I just try to take advantage of the information that's available and approach it as positively as I can. I hope that helps.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Wonder how Joe Hobby feels when his day job starts bringing in lots of interns for little and sometimes no pay, bet he sees that differently. Or as in my old field computing and jobs disappearing to India. Or company has layoffs and good people lose jobs, then the company bring in H-1B visa people because they are cheap to hire.

    For musicians bars and restaurants and similar gigs are their "day gig", same as whatever office, vehicle or machine Joe Hobby does to pay his bills.
    A musician vs. a software engineer, lousy comparison, not even close.

    I think you'd be crazy to pursue jazz guitar as a career if you were only concerned about financial security. So many better choices, like software engineering or accounting. If you are pursuing jazz guitar as a career I think it should largely be about the enjoyment you receive and the joy you can pass on to others. Same as Joe Hobby. Whining because of lack of financial success... what did you expect? Wes worked in a factory. Tal painted signs.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyp145
    Well I don't want to fan any flames, but the world is changing and we have a choice to find our place in the new paradigm or get crushed under the wheels of progress (or, in this case, regress -- believe me, I don't like it either). I actually don't play for free because my violinist is a pro who earns most of her living giving private violin lessons. So I'm always thinking about her whenever I book a gig and she has expressed gratitude to me for that (since my wife is the 3rd member of the trio we usually give her a very generous share of whatever we make, she's young, she needs the cash).

    I do have a suggestion. I've been subscribing to the Ari's Take newsletter for a couple of years and I find it remarkable how he manages to make a living playing original music. He's not a rock star (and may never be), but he seems to have developed a middle class lifestyle as a musician through merch sales at gigs, Patreon so his loyal fans can support him, and other revenue streams he blogs about freely. The kid is a real entrepreneur. Seems like if you do it right, the gig can be like a booth at a farmer's market, an opportunity to sell your wares to the venues customers and build a loyal following of your own.

    I know this is not a popular position. It sucks that it's not enough to be a good musician anymore. Now you have to really hustle to make a buck as a musician. But there are people who are adjusting to the new music business and some of them are even generous enough to share their ideas and philosophy with the rest of us. So I just try to take advantage of the information that's available and approach it as positively as I can. I hope that helps.


    Regretfully it part of this whole movement to cookie cutter everyone and everything in the world. So traditional job roles people see value in and will pay for those products and services. But musician, artist, writer, and similar creative paths they put don't feel are real jobs and not worth paying for. Started with the computer world and computers and other devices they could pickup and touch they felt had value, but anything that could be digitized like music, movies, software, ebooks, and etc they felt had no value and okay to steal. Got so bad no the companies that made those things are moving to get rid of all physical media and charge you a monthly fee to access them. Now the companies have a guaranteed flow of money coming in and you get access to what they can cut deal for. It's a vicious circle repeating it self.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Wonder how Joe Hobby feels when his day job starts bringing in lots of interns for little and sometimes no pay, bet he sees that differently. Or as in my old field computing and jobs disappearing to India. Or company has layoffs and good people lose jobs, then the company bring in H-1B visa people because they are cheap to hire.
    Traumatised by catastrophic negative emotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    For musicians bars and restaurants and similar gigs are their "day gig", same as whatever office, vehicle or machine Joe Hobby does to pay his bills.
    For Joe Hobby, those gigs are "therapeutic".