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Besides New York, I mean, which certainly has plenty going on, but a read at the most recent thread will give some indication of what it is like to try to earn a living there. It seems like the traditional channels and places are not what they were. Anyone have experience (realizing that jazz players will have to branch out a little unless they love starvation) in other cities? In the US? In Europe? I am in Barcelona at present. Again, a lot of nice players here but I cannot recommend it, other than for its own beauty.
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08-19-2016 09:49 AM
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In the US, perhaps Los Angeles to a degree, Chicago, New Orleans. Maybe San Francisco. I'm waiting to hear others chime in who live there.
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Thanks for the response, targuit. I wonder about LA. That used to be the wonderland. I am originally from the SF Bay area. The trouble there of course is that only demigods and above can afford to live there. At those prices, you might as well try NYC. Lovely place, though. Seattle seems a bit more accessible. Portland maybe?
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Boston. The scene is good here, you can get to New York easily, and there's a lot of teaching opportunities.
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Hey Boston Joe. That's nice. Nice town, seems less high-pressure than NY. I suppose anywhere does. What is cost of living like? I had understood it is on the high side. After SF though, maybe everywhere seems accessible.
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Chicago?
There's probably a handful of jazz clubs at best.
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Philly may have more going on for jazz than NYC these days.
Thing is though, before you even think about moving to the big city to try and make it, you should be one of the top players in your town first.
also, I know that its one thing to go on vacation to another country, but getting work papers to go be a musician is another thing entirely. So check in to that regarding coming to the US. You may be better off trying a city in the EU since you are already a citizen there.
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How do those who live abroad in Europe or elsewhere rate their cities as regards jazz and gigs? I think Europe generally still has a better appreciation of jazz as a style.
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Philadelphia, really? Interesting. I am actually a dual US/EU citizen. That is handy. You are absolutely right in that it is important to check details. And they vary wildly within the EU. For example, had I known of the draconian taxation system in Spain, particularly as regards the self-employed, I would not have come here for more than the nice vacation you mentioned. That said, I have a broad palette of options, perhaps too many!
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Targuit, although it seems like a cliché, I tend to think there is generally a greater appreciation for the arts in Europe. But Europe encompasses a lot, so yes and no. The trouble is, appreciation notwithstanding, can you get paid reasonably for what you do. It isn't great here in Spain. Would love to hear from anyone based a bit further north.
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That's about right. Expensive but not as bad as NY, LA, or SF. It's definitely a more relaxed city than NY, and not as crowded.
Originally Posted by guitboxer
Good gigs are tough to get, as there are so many fantastic players here, but they do exist, and like I said, there's plenty of teaching opportunity, both private and school-based.
The other nice thing is that it's close enough to NY that you can gig there occasionally. It's about 4 hours by car, and maybe a little less by train. There are also some cheap bus alternatives, but I'm not sure how safe they are.Last edited by Boston Joe; 08-19-2016 at 12:13 PM.
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I'm just a man cave guitarist, but I have no interest either living in a big city (been there, done that) or living in the US (I won't derail the thread with my reasons).
If life had turned out differently, I don't know what I'd do. Since I'm dreaming, what is Japan like? Might as well head for where I love the ladies!
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From what I've read anyways, your much better off staying in the EU. They literally hate jazz and jazz musicians in the U.S., compared to everywhere else. And the EU and parts of Asia seems to be where they actually like jazz the most these days, just from what I've read. That seems to be the case with other styles of music as well. For example my older brother has played in punk type bands for the last 25 or so years and when he does a gig here in the states, they are lucky if 50+ people show up. When he plays abroad in Europe or Mexico even for that matter, they easily have several hundred to a few thousand people showing up to their shows. When he tours Europe (which he does for a month or two every year), he doesn't necessarily make much money because the cost of hotels + renting tour bus + gas + beer eat up most of his profits. He told me once when he did about a 4 week tour there he spent about $20,000 on travel expenses. He was just happy to break even.
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france...?
they dig philosophy too (having invented the modern version of the subject)
they're 'oo-la-la' enough to like things they don't understand (and there's a strong french-jazz scene based on gypsy vibes i think)
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Jazz today is too intellectual to represent the aspiring middle-class the same way the swing era and funk band era represented the middle-class.
There were programs during the great depression that helped to make a vibrant scene in music. We didn't have that in the funk band era which was roughly late-60's to late 80's. What helped in the 70's was the war in Vietnam was starting to wind down. Everyone knew the end was near and there was a good vibe.
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With some exceptions the US is probably one of the worst places to be a musician now.
Last edited by Stevebol; 08-20-2016 at 11:33 AM.
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In the mid-80's 'jazz' was the buzz-word in Japan. From what I read Japan came into it's own in the following 5-10 years. It's #1 in live music and jazz now.
It came at a cost because R&B wasn't supposed to die there but it did. We all kind of screwed that up.
As far as competition I'd speculate that nearby places like China are up and coming. Europe? Never been there.
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Rather incredible the situation here. The demand for live music has withered with the aging of the Baby Boomers and changes in technology.
Maybe it seems crass, but the question I would like to ask is who on the forum is actually making decent money playing jazz or other musical styles and exactly how or where is this money derived? Live performance, teaching, government grants, songwriting, session work, jingles, record sales...?
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Reg says he makes his money from gigging, but he's also said that it's not unusual for him to have two or three gigs in a day. Originally Posted by targuit
I'm certainly not making any money, but I know people who do. For them it's mostly a combination of gigging and teaching. I'm sure there's other random stuff thrown in there, too.
My favorite local guy (pianist) teaches at Berklee, which, I imagine is the source of the majority of his income, but also gives private lessons, and gigs several times a week (he's in like five bands, plus he does pickup gigs).
Another local pianist, whom I don't know, is Japanese and spends a good chunk of time touring in Asia. I think she does pretty well over there.
A lot of the jazz folks I know also do R&B, Rock, Pop, and Blues. There are a good number of restaurant and lounge gigs for rock cover bands out in the burbs.
Boston is not the best live music city, but it's better than most, I think. We're kind of spoiled with so much good music available.
But here's an observation: I love hearing live music, but I HATE going to concerts. Is that a self-contradiction? Well... Seems like every concert I go to, there's someone seated nearby who has to talk through the whole thing. And there's always people being obnoxious with seating, general horsing around, getting up and getting beers, more beers, even more beers, etc. There are two venues I like to go to - both jazz clubs, because they pitch themselves as LISTENING venues, and they shush people who are talking. But a while back I saw Chick Corea and Bela Fleck - not exactly a rock and roll show - at a theater, and, yup, there was a drunk guy right in front of me, yapping his head off. I saw MSMW at the House of Blues. Same thing. Drunk jackholes yelling at their friends.
This lack of public manners makes me VERY reluctant to go out, especially when tickets are so expensive. I could stay home and watch a concert video, and have nearly as good an experience. I'll hear it better, and I won't have to have beer spilled on me, or smoke blown in my face.
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Jazz is a dynamic growing art for me. After living in NY, Philly, North Carolina, Western MA and Boston, it's come down to where I can find good and great people to play with, find new territory to grow with, learn from and share what I know with. I find that in New York and Boston. For me, they're close enough to be part of the same system. You can find affordable (survivable) in both places if you look. It depends on what you want. Married and raising a family? You'd need to find a serious teaching job in either place or be REALLY good. Find great people to play with and become REALLY good? You can do that in both places.
There's a very good scene in Boston for live music, and I don't go to concerts, Boston Joe, I'm with you there, but there's an amazing live club/gallery scene in Boston; something every night in classical, jazz, folk, and its all cheap or free. Joe, I know you're missing out on a really huge part of living in Boston just missing Jerry Bergonzi each Monday, I don't see you there. For the developing and studying, playing and improving musician, I think finding others to play with is THE most important single factour. That includes the presence of some really great schools here. Finding people you can regularly meet with and play with is the thing that gets you from "What scale do I play?" to "Yes! I love just happened-totally unexpected and beautiful!" and having the resource of playing regularly is absolutely invaluable.
I lived in Philly. Great bebop town. Jams several nights a week. But Natalie's closed down, Chris's got weird, and most of the jams dried up at the time I left. Plenty of venues for meeting other people and playing in Boston. If you go to the clubs, (not the concert halls) you'll find the real fans. Just a few but they're genuine and open for networking. Just stay away from the poseurs and their cell phones.
David
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Well, the demand for live jazz, anyway. But at, some of the venues we play, there are college age bands that attract 10 times the audience we attract. Originally Posted by targuit
My band is playing the music of the great-grandparents of today's college students. Our oldest member was born in 1944 and 3/4 of our repertoire seems to be about as old or older than he is (partly because the only tunes he really wants to play are 1940s or earlier pop standards. If it's not chock full of ii-V-I's he's very uncomfortable). The jazz repertoire is terribly conservative and staid, even stagnant. That's part of the loss of the audience, I think- there is little for them to connect to in the songs. They can hear the same tunes in elevators.
When I think of jazz artists who sell relatively well, they tend to (1) compose and/or (2) play tunes that borrow from current musical trends (such as Herbie Hancock, Miles, Benson, etc.). But most jazz musicians default to a 60-70-80 year old repertoire and emphasize interminable solos that are interchangeable from one song to the next. It's become classical music with improvisation, and that's just not going to fill a lot of seats in nightclubs.
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SF has a new center devoted specifically for jazz. It is really a great asset. I haven't seen anyone famous famous there but I have been there 8-10 times including some Saturday afternoon family shows. I will likely get a family membership soon as our Saturday schedule is more open now.
There are also about a dozen, or so, clubs but although they say that they are jazz clubs most that I can think of do have other genres as well. Also, some of them are known more for expensive sit down dinners, but have jazz entertainment as well. Yoshi's has existed in several iterations, but I think that the one in SF has changed hands again and I am not sure what they have for music.
I don't gig myself presently but I have a good friend that does on piano. He usually has work, but he casts a pretty wide net - wine country, East Bay, Marin, and touring, etc. besides the occasional restaurant gig in SF. From what I know those are less frequent now.
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this reminds me of a joke....a guy sees 10 jazz musicians in a small remote town walking under a street light looking for something..he asks..what are you looking for...Work they say..why don't you go to NYC LA etc he asks..there must be work there..Its too expensive to live there they say in unison..but we can afford to live here..
yeah..the world changes-as it does
point with you guys on "not going to concerts anymore" .. it seems common courtesy and manners have been replaced with cell phones and extreme tunnel vision..I stopped going to the movies for that reason..with cable and sat TV I can see the shows..but I'm irritated that other peoples behavior has modified my own..Im not one to keep quiet when I feel annoyed by others in any way..so my last theatre visit I had to hold my temper and decided if I wanted to tell 3 fairly large teens to "turn it down-PLEASE" or just leave it alone...now I justify the high theatre costs and refreshment rip offs as an additional reason..but I know quite a few who stopped going to theatres for the same reasons...(end of rant)..perhaps the movie we should all see again is "Network"..
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@lammie200, have you ever heard of the Smith Dobson Trio?
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I don't mean to give the wrong impression. There are musicians doing their thing in the US and doing fine. I'm just frustrated with what happened in R&B. Have to move on to something else. Originally Posted by targuit
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